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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 16 of 277 (497322)
02-03-2009 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ICANT
02-03-2009 1:16 PM


Re: 2-0 To The "Internals"
Straggler writes:
Do you think that the objective evidence available is sufficient to convince these people that God does indeed exist?
No.
Or must the empirical evidence be viewed through the eyes of one who already knows that God exists in order to make sense in this context?
Yes.
Thus we have an unequivocal declaration from an adamant theist that the existence of God cannot be derived from empirical evidence alone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2009 1:16 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2009 1:48 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 17 of 277 (497323)
02-03-2009 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Straggler
02-03-2009 1:42 PM


Re: 2-0 To The "Internals"
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Thus we have an unequivocal declaration from an adamant theist that the existence of God cannot be derived from empirical evidence alone.
Thats is a big 10/4.
In my personal belief that is a fact.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 1:42 PM Straggler has not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 277 (497324)
02-03-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
02-01-2009 7:15 PM


Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
1) Which came first for you personally (honestly) - Belief in God/Jesus/Bible or knowledge of the empirical evidence that you consider to support this position?
The empirical evidence came first. Like most people I had been trained as a child to believe in God, but came to the conclusion it probably wasn’t true around the time I was 13 or 14 and held that belief for over 20 years.
2) Are your beliefs the result of rational and objective conclusions based on physical evidence which have been confirmed by your relationship with God OR are your beliefs based on your relationship with God which you deem to have been confirmed by the objective physical evidence available? Which way round is it?
I hope you are not confusing physical and empirical evidence. When I was 16 I was looking out the front window of my parent’s house and saw a very large meteor streak across the sky from east to west. It was as big as the full moon and much brighter. Freaked me out.
Ran to the kitchen where everyone was and they hadn’t seen a thing. I’ve never personally met anyone else who had seen it and there are no pictures and it was not found. There is no physical evidence of its existence, but there is empirical evidence for its existence. I mean I did see it.
So in answer to 2.) I have no physical evidence, but my beliefs are the result of rational and objective conclusions based on empirical evidence. The relationship with God thing doesn’t make sense to me as I exist in a universe with spatial dimensions and time and he is in a “place” with no space and no time. He’s not in this universe or doing anything here so I have no relationship with him.
3) Could you maintain your faith in the absence of any objective empirical evidence that supports this position? (I.e. how faithful are you?)
No, I have no faith, just my experience to go on. I might mention you have as much chance of changing my mind on God’s existence as convincing me I did not see that meteor.
4) If the objective empirical evidence which you deem to support your beliefs were present but the relationship with God side of your faith was absent would you still believe as you do? (I.e. is the empirical evidence alone enough to maintain your position?)
Yes, as explained above God isn’t operating in this universe . .so no relationship exists.
5) Is empirical evidence or subjective knowledge of God's presence the root basis of your beliefs?
Empirical evidence.
As a note I am not a Christian, JC is not God and the bible wasn’t written by God. I answered your OP because you said “theists”, and I didn’t want you to remain ethnocentrically stuck.
My religion has one founder and one follower, and they are both me. Getting others to believe what I know is of no practical value. People need to discover and look for themselves, not believe what others tell them. Otherwise it makes no real difference in their lives.
I am not as quick as you to dismiss out of hand other peoples out of the ordinary or “religious experiences”. Make sure you are not practicing confirmation bias based on your non belief in God when you decide which empirical evidence to keep and which to pitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 02-01-2009 7:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 2:10 PM petrophysics1 has replied
 Message 21 by subbie, posted 02-03-2009 2:46 PM petrophysics1 has replied
 Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2009 3:45 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 19 of 277 (497326)
02-03-2009 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by petrophysics1
02-03-2009 1:54 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
The whole differentiation between objective empirical evidence and purely subjective evidence is the ability to independently verify one form but not the other.
If you are claiming to have "seen" meteors which nobody else saw and for which there is no other objective empirical evidence in favour of then I would class this as subjective "evidence".
Your meteor and your God are thus equally unevidenced in any objective terms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by petrophysics1, posted 02-03-2009 1:54 PM petrophysics1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by petrophysics1, posted 02-03-2009 2:22 PM Straggler has replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 277 (497328)
02-03-2009 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
02-03-2009 2:10 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
The whole differentiation between objective empirical evidence and purely subjective evidence is the ability to independently verify one form but not the other.
If you are claiming to have "seen" meteors which nobody else saw and for which there is no other objective empirical evidence in favour of then I would class this as subjective "evidence".
Your meteor and your God are thus equally unevidenced in any objective terms.
Really?
In October of 1917 around 70,000 people witnessed "something" happen to the sun in Fatima, Portugal. They attributed it to a miracle by the Virgin Mary, but that is not the point. Did something happen or not? It was witnessed by 70,000.
Have you ever seen a very large meteor?
How do you know they exist?
Did you read some book, which you believe, which told you so?
Other than me, have you ever met anyone who has seen a very large meteor enter the atmosphere? (I'm not talking shooting stars here.)
P.S. You seem to be saying that if one person experiences something it is subjective. So do two subjective expierences equal one objective experience? Or what number is required? Or does it depend on what YOU believe?
There are more people in the world who believe in God like me than don't like you. Does that prove you are out on the lunatic fringe?
empirical= derived from or guided by experience or experiment
Edited by petrophysics1, : typo
Edited by petrophysics1, : add P.S.
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 2:10 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 02-03-2009 2:56 PM petrophysics1 has not replied
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 8:05 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 21 of 277 (497330)
02-03-2009 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by petrophysics1
02-03-2009 1:54 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
quote:
I have no physical evidence, but my beliefs are the result of rational and objective conclusions based on empirical evidence. The relationship with God thing doesn’t make sense to me as I exist in a universe with spatial dimensions and time and he is in a “place” with no space and no time. He’s not in this universe or doing anything here so I have no relationship with him.
My emphasis
I'm confused. The portions that I've bolded seem contradictory. If he's not in this universe or doing anything here, how can there be empirical evidence?

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by petrophysics1, posted 02-03-2009 1:54 PM petrophysics1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by petrophysics1, posted 02-03-2009 3:24 PM subbie has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 22 of 277 (497332)
02-03-2009 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by petrophysics1
02-03-2009 2:22 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
Not to talk down on your beliefs or anything, but I'll see if I can find other explanations for some of the things you said.
petrophysics1 writes:
Really?
In October of 1917 around 70,000 people witnessed "something" happen to the sun in Fatima, Portugal. They attributed it to a miracle by the Virgin Mary, but that is not the point. Did something happen or not? It was witnessed by 70,000.
It could be that something did indeed happen, it could also be some form of mass hysteria. A few people thinking they've seen something, and this spreading throughout the group, where people, even if they didn't see something, will still be convinced they did.
Have you ever seen a very large meteor?
Personally, no. I have seen some pretty large craters though.
How do you know they exist?
The craters I mentioned above.
Did you read some book, which you believe, which told you so?
I saw the evidence they left, that convinced me. Is there a chance a large meteor didn't make them? Yes, but the possibilities are endless, and so, since we know big rocks fly around in space, we know rocks from space enter our atmosphere, and we know there are pretty big craters in the ground, not to mention the KT barrier in the ground layers, I'm pretty sure large meteor's exists.
Other than me, have you ever met anyone who has seen a very large meteor enter the atmosphere? (I'm not talking shooting stars here.)
No, but I'm not sure you did either. Perhaps you saw a much smaller meteor, but your mind made it out to be much bigger.
P.S. You seem to be saying that if one person experiences something it is subjective. So do two subjective expierences equal one objective experience? Or what number is required? Or does it depend on what YOU believe?
Experiences are NEVER objective. Only evidence everyone can look at and examine is.
There are more people in the world who believe in God like me than don't like you. Does that prove you out out on the lunatic fringe?
Actually that's not true. There are only about 1 billion Christians (I'm assuming you are one, it's even less if you are a Jew, and slightly more when you are a Muslim), so that would mean that most people DON'T believe in the same god you do.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by petrophysics1, posted 02-03-2009 2:22 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2009 6:44 PM Huntard has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 23 of 277 (497333)
02-03-2009 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
02-02-2009 7:51 PM


Re: Re Faith
Since it seems ICANT and I have been put in the same Christian camp by unbelievers at this form, I don't have anything to add to ICANT's answers.
But I will comment when unbelievers misrepresent what we believe and have received from God.
Our faith in God is also the faith of God; i.e, it can and does grow in our lives when we exercise the measure of faith God has given to every man (Rom 12:3). No exercising, and the measure of faith given to every man by God will atrophy and die.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2009 7:51 PM ICANT has not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 277 (497338)
02-03-2009 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by subbie
02-03-2009 2:46 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
You assumed that I have been in this universe for all of my existance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by subbie, posted 02-03-2009 2:46 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by subbie, posted 02-03-2009 3:52 PM petrophysics1 has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 25 of 277 (497339)
02-03-2009 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by petrophysics1
02-03-2009 1:54 PM


Is God a meteor?
petrophysics writes:
No, I have no faith, just my experience to go on. I might mention you have as much chance of changing my mind on God’s existence as convincing me I did not see that meteor.
If I saw a large meteor, I suppose that might lead me to believe that there are such things as...err...large meteors. It wouldn't occur to me, having seen a meteor, to start believing in a thing called a God (unless Gods are meteors).
So, meteor or no meteor, you would still require blind faith to believe in a God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by petrophysics1, posted 02-03-2009 1:54 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 02-03-2009 3:56 PM bluegenes has replied
 Message 30 by John 10:10, posted 02-03-2009 5:49 PM bluegenes has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 26 of 277 (497341)
02-03-2009 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by petrophysics1
02-03-2009 3:24 PM


Re: Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists/Atheists Apply Within
Ah, I see.
So, at what point in your life between age 33-34 and today did you leave this universe?

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by petrophysics1, posted 02-03-2009 3:24 PM petrophysics1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by petrophysics1, posted 02-03-2009 9:01 PM subbie has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 277 (497342)
02-03-2009 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bluegenes
02-03-2009 3:45 PM


Re: Is God a meteor?
bluegenes writes:
If I saw a large meteor, I suppose that might lead me to believe that there are such things as...err...large meteors. It wouldn't occur to me, having seen a meteor, to start believing in a thing called a God (unless Gods are meteors).
So, meteor or no meteor, you would still require blind faith to believe in a God.
We have more senses than mere sight. We have touch, sound, hearing, and taste...as well as the elusive and undefineable sixth sense. I have never seen God, but I have seen things that lead me to confirm my belief in God. Call it confirmation bias....I would prefer to take a stand and believe in something rather than forever question, doubt, and attempt to remain objective. The objective rat never finds the end of the maze as long as they have not explored all possible routes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2009 3:45 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Rahvin, posted 02-03-2009 5:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 29 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2009 5:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 28 of 277 (497359)
02-03-2009 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
02-03-2009 3:56 PM


Re: Is God a meteor?
We have more senses than mere sight. We have touch, sound, hearing, and taste...as well as the elusive and undefineable sixth sense.
If you can't even define this "sixth sense," how can you say it exists? What is it? What are its properties? What does it detect?
If you can't answer those basic questions, I'd have to say you're full of hot air.
I have never seen God, but I have seen things that lead me to confirm my belief in God. Call it confirmation bias....I would prefer to take a stand and believe in something rather than forever question, doubt, and attempt to remain objective.
Your choice. Everybody's entitled to their beliefs.
The objective rat never finds the end of the maze as long as they have not explored all possible routes.
...this statwement doesn't make sense. You can find the end of a maze without exploring every path. I can think of very few times I've solved a maze puzzle and have actually explored every path - in fact, I can't seem to recall even one.
Further, how would you propose that a "subjective rat" would find the exit? Since subjective belief requires no objective evidence and can even work in spite of contradictory evidence, I would speculate that a "subjective rat" would be far less likely to ever find the exit to a maze than an "objective rat."
But even taking your analogy, have you explored all paths, Phat? Have you explored every supernatural belief system? How do you know which one accurately represents reality? If you cannot differentiate one from any of the others, how do you know that any supernatural belief system accurately represents reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 02-03-2009 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 29 of 277 (497362)
02-03-2009 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
02-03-2009 3:56 PM


Re: Is God a meteor?
Phat writes:
....I would prefer to take a stand and believe in something rather than forever question, doubt, and attempt to remain objective. The objective rat never finds the end of the maze as long as they have not explored all possible routes.
But the subjective rat will not find the end of the maze merely by deciding to believe that he's there when he isn't, will he?
This rat realized long ago that he wouldn't get to the end of the maze, and that there probably is no end to it, so he restricted himself to exploring the explorable; his immediate environs.
Good to see that smiling, running phat man is still around!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 02-03-2009 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 30 of 277 (497363)
02-03-2009 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by bluegenes
02-03-2009 3:45 PM


Re: Is God a meteor?
So, meteor or no meteor, you would still require blind faith to believe in a God.
First misconception: That we Christians have "blind faith in God," and require such from unbeliever before they too can believe in God. Unbelievers have repeated this mantra so long that they believe it's true.
In truth, we Believers believe it requires more "faith" to believe that Creator God is not the cause for our existance, than to believe that Creator God is the cause for our existance. Once unbelievers begin to honestly consider that God is the cause for our existance, and then ask Him for the why, then the God who is reveals/discloses Himself to those who seek Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2009 3:45 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Huntard, posted 02-03-2009 5:57 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 32 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2009 6:28 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
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