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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 382 (497282)
02-03-2009 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Straggler
02-03-2009 8:59 AM


Again with my 2 cents
Straggler writes:
Do you consider someone who accepts current scientific conclusions regarding evolution, BB etc. and who also believes in, and worships, God to have been "saved"?
In your opinion is it possible to accept these scientific conclusions and to accept God to the point of being saved? Or not.
Personally, I believe that salvation is Gods doing and not our own so yes I DO believe that is is not only possible but common for scientific minds to become saved (or enlightened)
I will say, however, that the habit of skepticism so prevalent among science minded people makes it hard for them to believe that they are saved, even if they are!
  • Some folks think everyone is saved, anyway...which is another potential topic entirely.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 60 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 8:59 AM Straggler has not replied

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 62 of 382 (497298)
    02-03-2009 11:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 60 by Straggler
    02-03-2009 8:59 AM


    Hi Straggler,
    Straggler writes:
    Do you consider someone who accepts current scientific conclusions regarding evolution, BB etc. and who also believes in, and worships, God to have been "saved"?
    Straggler I know about no one but myself. I have been married to my wife for almost 52 years and I don't know if she is saved or not.
    What I think does not matter anyway.
    What a person does when they come to the realization there is a God and they need a saviour determines whether they are saved or not. What I believe or think has nothing to do with the results.
    Straggler writes:
    In your opinion is it possible to accept these scientific conclusions and to accept God to the point of being saved? Or not.
    Anything is possible. "All things are possible with God." Matthew 19:26
    I am delusional enough (according to many) to believe that God loved me and will save me.
    I also believe if He can save me He can save anybody.
    But you did not mention which scientific conclusions.
    If one comes to the conclusion there is no God or that they do not need God, then I would have to say no.
    To be saved a person has to believe that God Is.
    They must also see their need of salvation and then receive the free full pardon offered by God.
    That is all that a person must do to be saved.
    God Bless,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 60 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 8:59 AM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 63 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 12:26 PM ICANT has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 63 of 382 (497312)
    02-03-2009 12:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 62 by ICANT
    02-03-2009 11:42 AM


    Topic
    This thread is about creationists unjustifiably equating 'evolutionists' with atheists.
    I am trying to find out if this equivalence exists at all in your mind or not.
    As usual you are kind of missing the point of the questions posed so far. So I will stop skirting around the edges and just ask the questions outright.
    Do you explicitly associate theories like BB and evolution with atheism?
    Do you think that those who advocate such theories are either actually atheists or have been been brainwashed into believing "atheistic" falsehoods?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 62 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2009 11:42 AM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 64 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2009 1:42 PM Straggler has replied

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 64 of 382 (497321)
    02-03-2009 1:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by Straggler
    02-03-2009 12:26 PM


    Re: Topic
    Hi Straggler,
    Straggler writes:
    Do you explicitly associate theories like BB and evolution with atheism?
    Do you think that those who advocate such theories are either actually atheists or have been been brainwashed into believing "atheistic" falsehoods?
    But when you ask questions I can't preach.
    Do I explicitly associate theories like BB and evolution with atheism?
    No.
    I would be in trouble if I did. I am a farm boy so I know things change over time and can be manipulated to improve stock.
    I also believe the universe has been stretched out.
    As well as the land mass being spread out from one place.
    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
    There are many people who believe in both and still believe in God.
    Do I think that those who advocate such theories are either actually atheists or have been brainwashed into believing "atheistic" falsehoods?
    Neither.
    The question I would ask me.
    Do I believe those who do not believe in God has been deceived by the devil?
    Yes.
    God Bless,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by Straggler, posted 02-03-2009 12:26 PM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by Shield, posted 02-03-2009 2:17 PM ICANT has replied
     Message 67 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 7:12 AM ICANT has replied

      
    Shield
    Member (Idle past 2862 days)
    Posts: 482
    Joined: 01-29-2008


    Message 65 of 382 (497327)
    02-03-2009 2:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
    02-03-2009 1:42 PM


    Re: Topic
    Hi ICANT, great response.
    I just have one question;
    ICANT writes:
    Do I believe those who do not believe in God has been deceived by the devil?
    Yes.
    Is evolution a deception created by the devil?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2009 1:42 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 66 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2009 7:14 PM Shield has not replied

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 66 of 382 (497370)
    02-03-2009 7:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 65 by Shield
    02-03-2009 2:17 PM


    Re: Topic
    Hi rbp,
    rbp writes:
    Is evolution a deception created by the devil?
    No.
    But he has distorted it.
    Evolution is a fact. Things change over time.
    Just not as much as some people believe.
    God Bless,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by Shield, posted 02-03-2009 2:17 PM Shield has not replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 67 of 382 (497447)
    02-04-2009 7:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
    02-03-2009 1:42 PM


    Re: Topic
    Do I explicitly associate theories like BB and evolution with atheism?
    No.
    OK.
    Do I think that those who advocate such theories are either actually atheists or have been brainwashed into believing "atheistic" falsehoods?
    Neither.
    OK.
    If you can see that acceptance of these theories is not incompatible with a beliefe in God then I am unclear as to why you feel the need to so stubbornly and relentlessly oppose these theories?
    Why do you and other creationists continually insist that these theories are put in place primarily to do away with a need for God to exist?
    You have said this previously (esp in relation to the BB) in other threads. I can search around for quotes from you if you are going to claim that this is not so?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2009 1:42 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 68 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 1:52 PM Straggler has replied

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 68 of 382 (497517)
    02-04-2009 1:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 67 by Straggler
    02-04-2009 7:12 AM


    Re: Topic
    Hi Straggler,
    Straggler writes:
    If you can see that acceptance of these theories is not incompatible with a beliefe in God then I am unclear as to why you feel the need to so stubbornly and relentlessly oppose these theories?
    That is jumping to conclusions.
    I do not explicitly associate theories like BB and evolution with atheism?
    There are many people who believe in God and the BB theory.
    There are many people who believe in God and the ToE.
    So I would be a fool to equate BB, and Toe with atheism.
    I do not believe those who accept the BB theory and ToE are brainwashed. I do believe they are deceived by the devil. The devil never takes a lie and tries to get people to believe it. He takes half truths and puts his spin on it to get people to believe his story. Just as in the garden.
    But that does not mean that I believe that the BB theory and ToE is compatible with the Biblical account either.
    The standard theory has many problems. I tried to get a discussion on those problems and was eventually banned from the BB and Cosmology Topic.
    I presented problems that noted scientist had put forth concerning the standard theory.
    cavediver was the only poster that addressed those problems and his answer was that inflation solved those problems.
    I asked which hypothesis of the inflation theory solved those problems and he said any one. But the problem is there are many problems with the inflation hypothesis. None has been accepted as to the point of a theory or consensus.
    So we have a standard model that has problems that are solved by a hypothesis that some say can never be substantiated.
    There is no source for the universe other than hypothesis.
    Yet it is presented as a fact.
    The ToE is presented as a fact when transmutation has never been observed or reproduced and can not be.
    We have a 66 million year history of a creature without any pages missing in the book. During which time there was 330 different species started.
    But at the end of 66 million years they were the same kind of creature.
    So yes I believe many have been deceived into believing these half truths are facts and have accepted by faith that it happened the way they believe it happened.
    That is why I so stubbornly and relentlessly oppose these theories?
    I believe just as strongly that the case has not been made for the naturalist theory as you and others here believe the case has not been made for God.
    This battle has been going on for close to 6,000 years and will continue until the end of time as we know it.
    Straggler writes:
    Why do you and other creationists continually insist that these theories are put in place primarily to do away with a need for God to exist?
    Probably because of what the gods of the theories say.
    God Bless,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 67 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 7:12 AM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 69 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 2:19 PM ICANT has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 69 of 382 (497523)
    02-04-2009 2:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 68 by ICANT
    02-04-2009 1:52 PM


    Re: Topic
    Well finally we get to the meat of the situation.
    Straggler several posts ago writes:
    This thread is about creationists unjustifiably equating 'evolutionists' with atheists.
    I am trying to find out if this equivalence exists at all in your mind or not.
    ICANT writes:
    There are many people who believe in God and the BB theory.
    There are many people who believe in God and the ToE.
    So I would be a fool to equate BB, and Toe with atheism.
    I do not believe those who accept the BB theory and ToE are brainwashed. I do believe they are deceived by the devil.
    So such theories are ultimately the work of the devil. The devil wishes us to deny God. Therefore you view these theories to be God denying although not exactly atheistic as such.
    Is that a fair summary?
    You must admit that to claim something is God denying but not atheistic is a pretty subtle distinction?
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 1:52 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 71 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 3:06 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9076
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 70 of 382 (497526)
    02-04-2009 2:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
    01-30-2009 6:40 PM


    Where do you get your figures?
    Or are you pulling them out of thin air. I am an atheist but the vast majority of people I know are christians. The vast majority of them believe in evolution. I find believers in ID or creationism are in a minority. Even among christians.
    Maybe they are not christian enough for you?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2009 6:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 71 of 382 (497535)
    02-04-2009 3:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 69 by Straggler
    02-04-2009 2:19 PM


    Re: Topic
    Hi Straggler,
    Straggler writes:
    So such theories are ultimately the work of the devil. The devil wishes us to deny God.
    You don't know much about the devil do you?
    The devil does not care if you believe in God.
    The devil does not care if you are religious in fact he encourages it.
    The devil does not care if you join a church and get involved in all the church activities.
    But there are two things the devil does not want you to do.
    1) Read a good Bible. (because faith cometh by hearing the word).
    2) He does not want man to see his need of salvation to the point he puts the eternal destiny of his spirit in Gods hands.
    The devil will do everything in his power to keep this from happening and if he fails he will spend the rest of that person's life trying to convince them not to serve the Lord as master but to serve him.
    Straggler writes:
    Therefore you view these theories to be God denying although not exactly atheistic as such.
    I view them as the devils attempt to win his war with God.
    The devil knows his fate and desires to exalt himself by having more people refuse to accept God's offer than people choosing to accept the free full pardon offered by God.
    God Bless,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 69 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 2:19 PM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 72 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 3:20 PM ICANT has replied
     Message 73 by onifre, posted 02-04-2009 3:32 PM ICANT has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 72 of 382 (497539)
    02-04-2009 3:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
    02-04-2009 3:06 PM


    Re: Topic
    Straggler writes:
    So such theories are ultimately the work of the devil. The devil wishes us to deny God. Therefore you view these theories to be God denying although not exactly atheistic as such.
    Is that a fair summary?
    ICANT writes:
    You don't know much about the devil do you?
    No. I have only limited interest in fantasy figures.
    Straggler writes:
    Therefore you view these theories to be God denying although not exactly atheistic as such.
    I view them as the devils attempt to win his war with God.
    The devil knows his fate and desires to exalt himself by having more people refuse to accept God's offer than people choosing to accept the free full pardon offered by God.
    So BB, evolution etc. are ultimately the work of the devil. The devil wishes us to deny the need for salvation. Therefore you view these theories to be salvation denying and thus anti-Christian although not atheistic as such.
    Is that a fair summary?
    Can you see why claiming something is salvation denying and thus anti-Christian but not atheistic is a pretty subtle distinction in a predominantly Christian culture?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 3:06 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 4:23 PM Straggler has replied

      
    onifre
    Member (Idle past 2951 days)
    Posts: 4854
    From: Dark Side of the Moon
    Joined: 02-20-2008


    Message 73 of 382 (497542)
    02-04-2009 3:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 71 by ICANT
    02-04-2009 3:06 PM


    Re: Topic
    straggler writes:
    Therefore you view these theories to be God denying although not exactly atheistic as such.
    ICANT writes:
    I view them as the devils attempt to win his war with God.
    You honestly believe this...?
    You think the devil is deceiving people be manipulating science, picking certain theories and channeling through specific scientist that bring the theories to the mainstream...?
    Holy shit, it's no wonder the US is failing in education, the people children are listening to are making claims like this.

    "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
    "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 3:06 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 4:41 PM onifre has replied

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 74 of 382 (497554)
    02-04-2009 4:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 72 by Straggler
    02-04-2009 3:20 PM


    Re: Topic
    `Hi Straggler,
    Straggler writes:
    Therefore you view these theories to be salvation denying and thus anti-Christian although not atheistic as such.
    The devil does not have the authority to deny salvation, just as God does not take the authority to force salvation.
    If either was allowed to do that then man's free will would be negated.
    Man makes his own choice concerning salvation.
    God Bless,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 3:20 PM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by Straggler, posted 02-04-2009 4:35 PM ICANT has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 75 of 382 (497556)
    02-04-2009 4:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by ICANT
    02-04-2009 4:23 PM


    Re: Topic
    ICANT writes:
    I view them as the devils attempt to win his war with God.
    The devil knows his fate and desires to exalt himself by having more people refuse to accept God's offer than people choosing to accept the free full pardon offered by God.
    Straggler writes:
    So BB, evolution etc. are ultimately the work of the devil. The devil wishes us to deny the need for salvation. Therefore you view these theories to be salvation denying and thus anti-Christian although not atheistic as such.
    Is that a fair summary?
    ICANT writes:
    The devil does not have the authority to deny salvation, just as God does not take the authority to force salvation.
    If either was allowed to do that then man's free will would be negated.
    Man makes his own choice concerning salvation.
    I did not say the devil had any authority.
    I said that, based on your own statements, the devil seeks for us to deny the need for salvation.
    According to you he attempts to do this through (amongst other things) theories like BB and evolution.
    Therefore these theories support a position which denies a need for salvation.
    Therefore those who advocate such theories have been deceived by the devil into advocating a position that denies the need for salvation.
    Is that a fair summary?
    Can you see why claiming something is denying the need for salvation, and thus anti-Christian, but not atheistic is a pretty subtle distinction in a predominantly Christian culture?
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 4:23 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 77 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2009 5:10 PM Straggler has replied

      
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