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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 91 of 277 (497814)
02-06-2009 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
02-06-2009 6:04 AM


No Evidence = Results Unknown
Phat writes:
On the average, however, I fail to see why you have this idea that belief is an irresponsible position or why it endangers your family in any appreciable way.
I think you are confusing what I'm trying to tell you with something that you want me to be saying. You keep placing certain ideas into my arguement that simply do not exist. I didn't say that "it endangers my family in an appreciable way." There would need to be some evidence for me to say such a thing, and I agree with you that there is no evidence. I said that without any evidence, it is unknown if it may endager my family in an appreciable way. Therefore, it would be irresponsible to act. Here, again, is what I said:
Stile writes:
Are we able to tell the difference between evidence we have on God and things from our imagination? -No, we are not.
Does allowing a being (here, "the most powerful being in the universe") to influence some of (all of?) my decisions have a signficant potential to cause actions which harm me or my loved ones? -Yes, it most certainly does.
Such a thing requires very good evidence that the being is:
1. Real
2. Benevolent
Otherwise, I'm not being very responsible.
I assume you agree with the first point, since you already seem to acknowledge that there is no verifiable evidence for God.
But perhaps I have the second point wrong.
Are you saying God is not powerful?
Are you saying God will not have any influence at all on the decisions I make for my life and those around me?
I thought it was you who said that, once I believed, God would "pour oodles of evidence into my soul." That sounds, to me, like this God is going to have a very large impact on my life and those around me. I'm afraid I find it simply irresponsible to jump into something that's going to have a large impact without any sort of evidence as to what that impact is going to be like.
You can say there is evidence that the impact is beneficial... but there really isn't. Unless you can show that there actually is something beneficial, and real, that God-believers have that is unavailable to non-God-believers. If you can't do this, then there is no evidence. And you won't be able to do this, because (as you already know) there is no evidence.
And, with no evidence, I cannot risk a large impact on my life and those around me. That doesn't sound very responsible at all.
Unless you're saying that God really isn't going to have a big impact? Is God rather impotent, perhaps? In which case, without any evidence (again), I don't see why I should attempt to believe in something that is insignificant.
Edited by Stile, : Extra line here and there, because it's fun to edit things. Weeeee!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 02-06-2009 6:04 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 02-06-2009 9:27 AM Stile has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 92 of 277 (497815)
02-06-2009 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by onifre
02-05-2009 6:21 PM


Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
Looks like you ended up explaining it as a 5th grader would explain it, rather than so a 5th grader could understand it.
My reply was not to you, and explained "belief faith" and "unbelief faith" as/so a 5th grader could understand. Apparently you still didn't get the message, so what grade are you in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by onifre, posted 02-05-2009 6:21 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 8:21 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 94 by onifre, posted 02-06-2009 8:23 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


(1)
Message 93 of 277 (497826)
02-06-2009 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by John 10:10
02-06-2009 7:28 AM


Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
Maybe the fact is you should have explained it in a way that someone with a high school or college education could understand. It's much easier to con a 5th grader than one with more knowledge.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by John 10:10, posted 02-06-2009 7:28 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by John 10:10, posted 02-11-2009 2:55 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 94 of 277 (497827)
02-06-2009 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by John 10:10
02-06-2009 7:28 AM


Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
My reply was not to you, and explained "belief faith" and "unbelief faith" as/so a 5th grader could understand.
Are you just repeating what you said originally as if saying it a second time sounds better?
You may have tried to explain it AS/SO a 5th grader could understand but you ended up sounding LIKE a 5th grader explaining it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by John 10:10, posted 02-06-2009 7:28 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 277 (497850)
02-06-2009 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Stile
02-06-2009 7:27 AM


Re: No Evidence = Results Unknown
Stile writes:
Unless you're saying that God really isn't going to have a big impact? Is God rather impotent, perhaps? In which case, without any evidence (again), I don't see why I should attempt to believe in something that is insignificant.
You can educate and inform your family on the duplicities of organized religion and of human bias. You can present alternative humanistic beliefs to your children, in the hope that you can teach them to think rationally. But if this God is real, and if it is somehow foreknown that one or more of your family members may one day answer a call, there is little if anything you will be able to do to prevent it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Stile, posted 02-06-2009 7:27 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Stile, posted 02-06-2009 10:07 AM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 96 of 277 (497861)
02-06-2009 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
02-06-2009 9:27 AM


Re: No Evidence = Results Unknown
But if this God is real, and if it is somehow foreknown that one or more of your family members may one day answer a call, there is little if anything you will be able to do to prevent it.
Why do you think I'm attempting to prevent understanding God?
I am, in fact, trying very hard to understand God.
It just so happens, though, that there is NO EVIDENCE for me to use to understand God. You agree that there is no evidence. You seem to imply that I should be persuaded by no evidence. Why is that?
Are you saying that I am personally at fault because there is no evidence of God?
I agree with you completely that IF God is real, and IF God is benevolent, then all sorts of good things might happen. But you seem to keep forgetting that there is no evidence. That means that God not being real or God being very harmful is also possible.
I am simply trying to be responsible and ensure the safety of myself and those around me as much as I can.
Fact: We cannot tell the difference between "God" and "imagination"... that is, there is no verifiable evidence for the existence of God or His intentions.
Fact: Those who suggest others should believe in God strongly state that there will be large changes in their lives. They strongly assure me that my entire life will be different.
Fact: Big changes are expected, no evidence for those changes being good or bad.
Fact: This is a big-risk decision.
Fact: Big risk, nothing to say which way the risk goes (good or bad), since there is no evidence... equals a decision to avoid if I prioritize the safety of myself and those around me.
Which of those facts is untrue?
Why do you not understand that this is simply a responsible decision I'm making in order to protect the safety of myself and those around me to the best of my abilities?
Are you suggesting that it would be a wise thing to risk the safety of myself and my family on huge decisions in which there is no verifiable evidence that it could turn out beneficial or harmful?
These are all things you've told me:
-There is no verifiable evidence
-God can pour oodles of unverifiable evidence into my soul so that I will be convinced
Without any verifiable evidence that the "convincing" God can do to me is going to be good rather than bad... isn't jumping into such a huge, life-changing decision a big risk? Do you really not see this?
There are lots of people who say they've made this decision and their lives turn out very nice and good, very similar to how my life is now.
There are lots of people who say they've made this decision and their lives turn out very bad and evil, committing incredibly horrific attrocities.
There is no verifiable evidence to say that if I make this decision, which way I'm going to go. Looking at the available, verifiable evidence:
The "positive" route seems like there isn't any advantage over my life now.
The "negative" route seems incredibly horrible indeed.
Why would I choose to take such a rediculous gamble, with only the notion of "unverifiable good things" as a dangling carrot?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 02-06-2009 9:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Phat, posted 02-06-2009 10:38 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 11-08-2014 1:48 AM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 277 (497864)
02-06-2009 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Stile
02-06-2009 10:07 AM


Re: No Evidence = Results Unknown
OK, you have a good point. I'll leave you alone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Stile, posted 02-06-2009 10:07 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 98 of 277 (498205)
02-09-2009 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Buzsaw
02-05-2009 12:23 PM


Re: Responses To OP Questions
Buzsaw writes:
Don't ask me here to elaborate as that would lead off topic.
Just as any contradiction to the almighty Buzsaw is inherently judged to be off topic as you are the pretended owner and final arbiter of this forum. Perhaps the moderators of this forum should be allowed to govern in your stead.
Anglagard writes:
Yes, Tyre is uninhabited to this day and Jesus returned in 1844 but he is in hiding.
Buzsaw writes:
These are either debatable or strawmen examples. The 1944 example is totally strawman as it is not a Biblical prophecy. It is a nut case example of someone's ignorance of the Biblical prophecies.
Of course you have been nailed on the Tyre example for one even if you can't admit it. As to the other, it does not necessarily apply to you but as a supporter of all and any enemies of evolution, genetics, and the germ theory of disease perhaps you should check with the Seventh Day Adventists as their foundation is weaseling out of any prophecy for any second coming. Maybe your friends have some baggage.
BTW, it is 1844 instead of 1944. why should anyone believe in a person who is so sloppy in their comprehension
anglagard writes:
It would not matter how much evidence there is against any global flood to as you would not believe even God if he told you otherwise. (as God has done through physics, chemistry, geology, biology, anthropology, history, and linguistics in at least 100 categories of millions of pieces of evidence).
Buzsaw writes:
That's all debatable and not for this thread.
Yes indeed it is debatable, so show your chops when denying all of physics, chemistry, geology, biology, anthropology, history, and linguistics instead of just judging our souls in the absence of your 'god.'
Buzsaw writes:
1. Another strawman. That we disagree is not tantamount to hate on my part towards you as a person.
Glad to hear that.
2. Your "emphatic NO" is a blind unsupported assertion. If you think sources which I've cited for the Exodus are evil and disobedient to God, feel free to bring up the threads support your charge in another thread.
I would not go to the extreme that all should defer to your insight if Hovind and Baugh are marketed as representatives of your god on earth considering their faked credentials.
The rest is just too much, and at this point I just don't care as long as your hate and fear is not used to corrupt politics and public education.
Yeah right.
Edited by anglagard, : missed an =

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Buzsaw, posted 02-05-2009 12:23 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 99 of 277 (498330)
02-09-2009 7:17 PM


I Believe In.....Categorisation
We seem to have established 4 categories of believer in terms of the differing forms of evidence and the role each plays in the basis for belief in God.
These are:
1) Category 1 Believer: Internal evidence is the essential basis of a belief in God.
2) Category 2 Believer: External/physical evidence is the essential basis of a belief in God.
3) Category 3 Believer: Elements of both internal evidence and external evidence are essential components in forming the basis of a belief in God but neither one nor the other is sufficient in itself.
4) Category 4 Believer: Neither internal nor external evidence is required. Such a believer does not know why they believe in God. They just do.
Most theists who have replied have declared themselves to be category 1 believers. These are the most consistent and, in terms of ths debate at least, the least interesting as they are not seeking to rationalise their belief in any sense that relies on external, physical, empirical, scientific evidence.
Buz might be a category 3 believer or he might be a misguided category 1 believer who for some reason insists on supplementing his inner knowledge of God with physical evidence. I am not sure which as he stopped responding when explicitly asked this question.
Bertot says "both" so I can only assume that he is a category 3 believer. If this is true then neither his inner knoweldge of God nor physical evidence alone are sufficient to meet his criteria for belief. But again he has stopped responding so I cannot say for certain what his position is. I am not even sure, that beyond an irrational certainty that he is completely right, Bertot knows himself.
Nobody has stated themselves to be a 2) or a 4).
The fourth option represents the completely unthinking. Asking these people why they believe in God will garner the same sort of reaction that you would get if you asked a dog why it barks. EvC is probably the wrong place for anyone who might fall into that category. It is included just for completeness. Not because anybody here has declared this to be their view.
It is interesting to note that no-one has as yet declared themselves to be a category 2 believer. Category 2 type evidence would very much be the sole basis for a wholly scientific position. It is very telling that no believer seems prepared to declare this type of evidence as solely essential to their belief.
I would suggest that this directly leads to the conclusion that physical evidence alone is an insufficiant basis on which to conclude that God exists unless specifically viewed through God tinted spectacles.
But before I make that case I will give the theists who claim that their belief in God is partially or wholly reliant on physical evidence a chance to respond.

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by bluegenes, posted 02-10-2009 6:58 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 104 by iano, posted 02-11-2009 8:12 PM Straggler has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 100 of 277 (498391)
02-10-2009 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straggler
02-09-2009 7:17 PM


Re: I Believe In.....Categorisation
Straggler writes:
The fourth option represents the completely unthinking. Asking these people why they believe in God will garner the same sort of reaction that you would get if you asked a dog why it barks. EvC is probably the wrong place for anyone who might fall into that category. It is included just for completeness. Not because anybody here has declared this to be their view.
I'm not sure if they'd be completely unthinking. They could be described as more honest than those in your other categories.
What about a special category for: "I believe in God because most other people in my country/culture do"?
And another honest one: "I believe in God because I was taught to do so as a child".
If there are any honest theists around who are capable of a bit of self analysis, they should realise that those two cover most of the ground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 7:17 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2009 8:11 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 101 of 277 (498413)
02-10-2009 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by bluegenes
02-10-2009 6:58 AM


Re: I Believe In.....Categorisation
What about a special category for: "I believe in God because most other people in my country/culture do"?
And another honest one: "I believe in God because I was taught to do so as a child".
If there are any honest theists around who are capable of a bit of self analysis, they should realise that those two cover most of the ground
I sort of agree with you. Maybe theists that fall under this category should be called "apathetic theists" (or apatheists for short).
Essentially those who claim no definite inner experience on which to base their belief and no interest in physical evidence supporting the bible (or whatever).
Simply those too lazy or uninterested to think about the question of God for themselves who go with the flow in terms of predominant cultural attitudes and beliefs.
We all do that to some extent in a whole host of areas so although this sounds quite a damning description it is very much a case of "Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone"
Anyway - The apatheists are not really relevant to this discussion as they are not seeking to rationalise their belief in terms of anything. Not even to themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by bluegenes, posted 02-10-2009 6:58 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 102 of 277 (498534)
02-11-2009 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by bluescat48
02-06-2009 8:21 AM


Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
Maybe the fact is you should have explained it in a way that someone with a high school or college education could understand. It's much easier to con a 5th grader than one with more knowledge.
Quite the contrary, in Mark 10:15 Jesus declares this,
"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by bluescat48, posted 02-06-2009 8:21 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 7:11 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 103 of 277 (498551)
02-11-2009 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by John 10:10
02-11-2009 2:55 PM


Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
Hello John 10:10
Maybe you could help with the topic at hand by explicitly declaring which of the following categories you consider yourself to be a member of:
1) Category 1 Believer: Internal evidence is the essential basis of a belief in God.
2) Category 2 Believer: External/physical evidence is the essential basis of a belief in God.
3) Category 3 Believer: Elements of both internal evidence and external evidence are essential components in forming the basis of a belief in God but neither one nor the other is sufficient in itself.
4) Category 4 Believer: Neither internal nor external evidence is required. Such a believer does not know why they believe in God. They just do.
So which is it?
Or if none of the above please detail, exactly and precisely, the basis of your belief in God.
Many thanks in advance.
Strags
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by John 10:10, posted 02-11-2009 2:55 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by John 10:10, posted 02-11-2009 8:37 PM Straggler has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 104 of 277 (498561)
02-11-2009 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straggler
02-09-2009 7:17 PM


Re: I Believe In.....Categorisation
Whilst admiring your tendency to reflect unto summation (it is certainly helpful) I do wonder whether you're not seeing the wood for the trees.
-
Straggler writes:
Most theists who have replied have declared themselves to be category 1 believers. These are the most consistent
I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill but "consistancy" might warrant further investigation. How does consistancy arise from the 4 corners of the globe, amongst a group unconnected socio-politically, intellectually, economically, culturally..etc.
This was the thing that caused me to wonder when I was in-between times. I sat in a room talking the Bible with housewives, salesmen, big businessmen, criminals, starlets, drug addicts...and the like. As disparate (according to the worldy measure of such things) a bunch as one could hope for. Yet we all (came to ) realise that we stood on the same ground before God.
..and, in terms of ths debate at least, the least interesting as they are not seeking to rationalise their belief in any sense that relies on external, physical, empirical, scientific evidence.
Lets call "external, physical, empirical, scientific evidence" the box. And lets call thinking outside the above:
"thinking outside the box"
The Bible says that (lost) man is without excuse. And that includes you Struggler. You're faced with folks whose intellect cannot be in doubt. Their ability to intellectually weigh and ponder and consider and conclude far outweighs your ability. And yet they believe.
Unless you find a way to resolve this glaring problem ...you have a problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 7:17 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 8:44 PM iano has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 105 of 277 (498563)
02-11-2009 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Straggler
02-11-2009 7:11 PM


Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
I've explained why I believe in the Person whom God sent (John 6:28-29) many times to unbelievers such as you, and no proof that I can offer will make any difference whatsoever to you. You must find this proof for yourself as I have done. If and when you do, you will find your heart opening up to the truth and reality of who Jesus is and what He wants to do in your life. Until then ............................................

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 7:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 8:50 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
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