Summations Only

One word: Preposterous.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

And yet God continues to allow Satan to do his dirty work. Why would God choose to allow a loose cannon like Satan to continue to deceive and manipulate man when he knows that these actions will cause some men to miss their chance to receive the gift of eternal life?Cheers
--Caldron68

No, it is not "preposterous".About a decade ago I received this in an email. It was the first time I had heard it, but apparently it's made the rounds, as was apparent from his not being able to discuss it. And believe it or not, that he had put that "(sic)" in himself; one normally only does that when quoting somebody else:

quote:

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I am a Christian, and I believe God to the creator, but I don't see how it can always be conclusively supported with given data. Now given, data doesn't lie, but I do not think that all data is intrinsically pure. In other words this: it has been tampered with by supernatural beings, namely satan himself. satan's (sic) main concern is that he takes as many people down with him as possible. If he can convince us that God doens't exist by "tampering" with geological data and other findings, then we will think that we are alone in this universe with no spiritual meaning, and that when we die, we are worm food. Has anyone ever expressed this view towards you before? How do you respond to it? I know it sounds like an easy cop-out, but God has given satan the power over the earth and spiritual warfare does take place every day. What are your thoughts? I know that you have had a bad experiance with some other Creationists, and that makes us look bad.

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This was part of my reply:

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An interesting view. No, I don't recall having heard it before. Of course, since it is impossible for us to know anything about the supernatural, we could come up with any number of supernaturalistic conspiracy theories to explain anything we want to. One that immediately comes to mind is Maya; all of our physical existence is just illusion anyway.

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However, if it is a trick of Satan's, then it is a far more subtle and deadly trick than you think. At the end of my Quotes Page [site not currently hosted], I wrote from memory what a Christian had told me on CompuServe's Science Forum, circa 1997:

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In order to ensnare Christians, Satan, the Great Deceiver, knows that he cannot fool them with single lies, so he always creates lies in pairs. The first and lesser lie is intended be alarming and to scare Christians and to drive them to embrace the second and more pernicious lie, trapping them there. That Christian viewed both creation science and evolution as lies, but evolution was the lesser lie which Satan uses to frighten Christians and to drive them to embrace the truly pernicious lie, creation science.

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Think about it, Matt. You are trying to explain away the "lesser lie", but you do not see the "greater lie", even though it forms the basis of your entire argument.

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Tell me, Matt, why would Satan's tampering with geological data convince us that God doesn't exist? Think about it. What assumptions have you made there? Haven't you embraced the "greater lie", the lie that science disproves God? The lie that forms the heart of creation science? Sneaky devil, isn't he? He snared you and you didn't even know it. And he didn't even have to tamper with the physical evidence; all he had to do was to trick you into believing that the evidence would convince you that God doesn't exist and then just let the universe do the rest.

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. . . {I offered a discussion of the nature of theology, that it's the fallible efforts of fallible humans to try to figure out the supernatural and that each follower of a given theology actually has constructed his own theology out of his misunderstanding of his teachers' misunderstandings } . . .

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Now somebody comes along, reinterprets what a lot of other fallible humans have reinterpreted and taught him, and proclaims that certain things must be true about the physical universe or else EVERYTHING we believe about God must be false, we are alone in this universe with no spiritual meaning, and when we die, we are worm food. For example, John Morris of the ICR at the 1986 International Conference on Creationism: "If the earth is more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning." Then, sure enough, those certain things end up not being true.

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What's your next move?
1. Accept that God doesn't exist, flush your faith down the toilet, and embrace yet another fallible reinterpretation that as an atheist you can run naked down the street, do anything you want to, and party constantly until it kills you.
or
2. Deny, deny, deny the scientific evidence that "disproves God" and campaign relentlessly to keep others from hearing about it too.
or
3. Realize that that fallible human reinterpretation, that those certain things being false would disprove God, was flawed to begin with and was just plain wrong and should be either corrected or discarded.
or
4. ____________________________________________(fill in the blank)

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Which answer would you choose?

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So we see that what "creation science"-style creationism teaches and accomplishes is exactly the same that they accuse Satan of trying to do. And indeed, the only way that Satan's "false evidence" could work is if creationism has already taught its lies about what that evidence would mean. Until creationists teach that "If the earth is more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning," there is no reason to believe that evidence for an old earth disproves God.But it doesn't stop there. Creationism also causes Christianity to fail the Matthew 7:20 test: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. The plethora of persistent false claims (AKA PRATTs) and deceptions, along with other dishonest conduct, only serves to discredit Christianity -- and the persistent creationist witness that they themselves believe that all they have at their disposal to support their religion are lies and deceptions doesn't help matters any. In accordance with the Matt 7:20 test, they prove that theirs is a false religion when Jesus is quoted as commanding to be hewn down and cast into the fire (Matt 7:19).IOW, creationists are doing Satan's work for Him.Edited by dwise1, : cleaned up indirect quote from CompuServe

"Preposterous" in your view.It could equally be argued that limiting and restricting ones concept of God's majesty to a banal literal interpretation of the greatest work of intricate metaphor and complex allegory known to man is also preposterous.It depends on ones point of view.

The discussion about Satan makes it clear that Christianity has never been able to separate itself fully from belief in more than one God. It all depends how you're willing to look at it, but leaving the devil out of the discussion for the moment, the Christian perspective is that the trinity of God, Jesus and the holy spirit is just one God. The angels are a projection of God's will, and so are also part of the one God.But once you add the devil to the equation it can no longer be considered that there is just one God. He is not part of God, and he is not a projection of God's will. He is an independent supernatural entity with apparently far more power and initiative to do evil than God has to do good.My deistic beliefs are that there is just one God about whom we haven't happened to uncover any hard evidence as of yet.Quick aside: I saw an FSM symbol on a car for the first time yesterday. It was in the same fish shape as the one used by Christians and by the Darwin fish but with squiggly lines emerging from it and the letters FSM in the body. Pretty neat!--Percy

What does that mean precisely? Would it be the same as God saying "let us make man..." - rendering us a projection of Gods will? Why is adding the devil any different than adding any other willed being? If it is Gods will that a being he creates have own will then that being acting against Gods will is acting - by virtue of will expression - according to Gods will. Christians frequently point to the subjective evidence of Gods indwelling as fuel for their belief. What fuel fuels your belief in the face of a similar lack of hard evidence. In gun-toting fundie USA? I admire their zeal!! Edited by iano, : No reason given.

No, of course not. The question under consideration is, "How many supernatural beings do Christians believe in?" Man isn't a supernatural being.So if the Father, Son, Holy Ghost and angels are actually just one collective being known as God, and if that were the only supernatural being Christians believed in, then it could be argued that Christians believe in one God.But Satan is another supernatural being independent of God's will in whose existence Christians also believe. That's two gods.--Percy

Hi ICANT, I know that for you these theories do not remove God from the equation, however, the point is not that it deceives you the point was that you feel the theories are being manipulated/guilded/promoted by the "devil" to deceive the rest of us.This was the same opinion of those who convicted Galileo(and other people of science). They too felt that the "devil" was deceiving us through the works of modern science and through the Godless theories that were, at that time, trying to explain the reality of our world/universe.They were wrong to hold to these opinions. So how do justify your current stance on certain theories being used by the "devil" to deceive mankind when throughout history it has been proven false...?What evidence can you provide that your current opinion is not equally unjustified as it was 500 years ago...?What method are you using differently from theirs...?Because to me, and perhaps to others who are reading this, it seems like the same fallacious argument that has always failed. Can you provide some evidence as to why you feel yours is better...? Perhaps... According to one specific religious text, yes. There is no evidence for that. This is just your assertion, but it's irrelevant, so whatever. This is even more irrelevant to the discussion.To sum up my questions, if my post is not addressing it properly, do you see the similarity between what you believe to be the work of the "devil" in current theories and what was believed to be the work of the "devil" in theories 500 years ago...?Do recognize that this sort of stance has failed repeatedly in the past because it is borne out of ignorence and fear...?Do you have better evidence to show for justify your stance that is different from the approach used to justify the conviction of certain scientist in the past...?- Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Too many misunderstand the concept of the Trinity. Biblically, here is one god, head of the trinity, Jehovah. There is one son of the one supreme god of the Universe, Jesus, the christ/savior who was born from a virgin mother.Jesus always referred to Jehovah as his god and his father. Jehovah (God) did not come down from his throne and die on the cross as is sometimes falsely stated or implied.Jesus said, someplace in John 14 that God (his father) is greater than he. The apostle Paul states in I Corinthians that Jesus, after all things are subdued, will again subject himself to God. In is prayers, Jesus referred to Jehovah as his god or his father, as per the Lord's Prayer and the pre-cross agony prayer and others.Jesus, the son of God is referred to as our lord and God as our father in many of the openers of the epistles to the churches. The meaning of the word lord is master. Jesus has been given the lordship over the church/Christians by the father.I've said the above to say that there is one god and one son of god, who was fathered by the multipresent spirit of God.The Holy Spirit does not have a proper name like Jesus and Jehovah do. In the original manuscripts, the non-proper names like holy spirit are in the lower case and not intended to be capitalized. The translators take it upon themselves to add the capitalization of these terms like holy spirit, lord, god and christ. These are all generic terms which may apply to either deity or to lesser beings who exercise authority or are revered.Satan can do nothing outside of the permissive will of God. (I capitalize the word god where I deem it respectful to those who don't understand all of this.) As is demonstrated in Job 1, Satan is subject to Jehovah, god of the universe, as are all of the angels, both bad and evil.There are multiple levels of intelligent beings in the universe, all creatures of the supreme god, Jehovah. Some arguments here in this thread appear to apply the term, god to any form of possible intelligence above that of earth beings/humans.The term supernatural is a term which we humans apply to any form of intelligence or any event that implies a higher intelligence. That term covers a far wider range of applications than god.I've said the above to say that the term deist does not correctly apply to the Biblical literalist Kingdom Of God. In that kingdom, there is one and only one god whose proper name is Jehovah.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hmm, Buzzsaw, you seem to be an anti-trinitarian and your post is diametrically opposed to the Nicene creed adopted by the Roman Catholic Church and most of Protestantism. Many main-line Christians would be hard pressed to consider you a "true" Christian as you do not support their trinitarian belief.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Hi caldron68, We have covered this before.The devil exists and does his job so mankind can have a choice.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Percy, When you add the devil there is still only one God.The devil is a created evil being. I have never found where the devil had free will and could do what he wanted to do. For him to be a god that would be necessary. The devil could not do anything without God's permission.The devil took all Job's earthly possession even to his children.But the devil could not make Job curse God.So he asked for permission to inflict more pain on Job. God gave permission but said you can not take his life.I believe this example was given for our benefit that we could know God was in charge and there was only one God.If you study the first 2 chapters of Job you find that the devil is allowed to do many things but he can not do anything that God does not allow him to do.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Applying logic to the conditions you two have provided:

• Satan is an evil being created by God
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• Satan can do nothing that isn't God's will.
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• Satan projects evil upon the world.
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• Evil is God's will.

Can I guess that now we're back to, "You have to believe it before it makes sense?"--Percy

Hi DA. I hope all is well with you and your Naval unit.I understand your point. I consider myself a trinitarian because the father and the son share one multipresent spirit which we refer to in scripture as the holy spirit/Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is referenced by the masculine pronoun, "he" often and I believe as "it" on occasion in the manuscripts from which scriptures have been taken. The spirit is the mobile multipresent agent/spirit of Jehovah which is sent throughout the Universe to do the bidding of God.The baptism scripture in Matt 28 implies the term trinity relative to the father, son and spirit. (three) Therefore I can scripturally describe myself as a trinitarian. (Matthew 28.18b-20 )Men and creeds of men refer to the Trinity as three persons. This is neither scriptural or sensible. There is one person perse in the trinity being the "son of man" as Jesus is described in the NT by himself and others. The supreme god, Jehovah and the Holy Spirit are not persons by any stretch of the imagination.Bottom line: Buzsaw's doctrines of theology regard Biblical scripture as foundational truth. Biblical scripture either supports or falsifies creeds and doc tines of men.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi oni, As I understand it Galileo was a member of the Catholic church and therefore under the doctrines of the church.You might get Catholic Scientist to explain why they did what the did.Galileo got house arrest that is a lot better than those that would not accept Catholic baptism and other doctrines got.So don't cry on my shoulder.They had their beliefs and I have mine.I say you are welcome to believe whatever you want to believe and to publish that belief.I also demand the same right.Therefore I believe the devil will and has taken everything in his power and used it to get people to not accept God's offer of a free full pardon since the incident in the garden with the first man.The number one reason I get for people not trusting in God is that the church is full of a bunch of hypocrites. Are you sure the church was wrong in their geocentric view?As I understand it without dark energy the Copernican model is falsified.That would leave the earth as the center of the universe as the simplest explanation for the practical and mathematical understanding of the universe. So I am ignorant if I think the devil will use anything and everything to get people to not believe in or trust God and accept His offer of a free full pardon.What do I fear?I do not fear God today as I am a born again child of His.I do fear what he can do. He can take one's life and then cast the eternal man into a lake of fire where he will remain for eternity.I do not fear man as the most he could do would be kill me.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."