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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 151 of 382 (498024)
02-07-2009 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by caldron68
02-07-2009 8:58 AM


Re: To Believers
caldron68 writes:
The meaning of the word in the post was clear but the use of that word within that specific context was incorrect.
You're being far too generous. ICANT is just playing games. When he hears phrases like "the carnage on Wall Street" he doesn't really think that brokers are jumping out of windows and the SEC is mowing down hedge fund managers with machine guns. When you referred to his own carnage he knew exactly what you meant, he just chose to pretend otherwise, as he often does. He lost his posting permissions in [forum=-2] for pretty much the same behavior.
That ICANT does this isn't a license for others to ignore the Forum Guidelines when debating with him, but it does help to be aware of what he's doing so you don't unwittingly waste too much time.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by caldron68, posted 02-07-2009 8:58 AM caldron68 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 152 of 382 (498026)
02-07-2009 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Buzsaw
02-07-2009 9:10 AM


Re: To Believers
Buzsaw writes:
In summary, Percy, I think you're stretching it to claim that Christians regard Satan as a god. That just is not the case, though there may be a few who would agree with you.
How Christians choose to characterize their views has nothing to do with the reality of those views. That Christians believe in a panoply of supernatural beings that they give various designations to like God and Satan, angels and devils, is no different than the pagan belief in many gods, such as the ancient Greek belief in Zeus, Hera, Ares, Apollo, Aphrodite and all the rest.
Even God in the Bible acknowledged that he is not the only God when he advised in his first commandment to Moses that the Jews must hold no gods more dear than him.
So you can choose which contradictory view you wish to hold, but you can't avoid a contradiction. Either you believe that multiple gods exist (whether you choose to call them gods or angels or some other term is immaterial) and that some are good and some are evil, or you believe that there is only one God and that he is equally responsible for both good and evil.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 9:10 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 8:32 PM Percy has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 153 of 382 (498030)
02-07-2009 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by caldron68
02-07-2009 12:28 AM


Re: To Believers
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes:
Ok, I agree, carnage was not the correct word to use in this case. Let's use damage instead. Happy?
Much better.
That is what you meant in the first place. That I was doing damage to the person.
Then you give me the reason you think I am doing damage which I address below.
caldron68 writes:
Telling a child that they're going to hell if they sin is child abuse.
That would be debatable.
But I don't tell children they are going to hell if they sin.
I tell them the same thing you read here if you read my posts.
The only difference in a person in heaven and hell.
The one in heaven is a saved sinner and the one in hell is a lost sinner.
So whether you are a sinner or not is a mute point.
John tell us the only reason a person goes to hell or the lake of fire as I prefer is:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John says you are condemned because you have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Not because you are a sinner.
Not because you have not joined the church.
Not because you have not been baptized.
Not because you have not lived for God.
Not because you have not followed God's rules.
Not because you have not done many wonderful works.
Not because you have not helped the poor and downtrodden.
But because you have not believed in the only begotten Son of God.
That would involve believing that God IS.
As well as believing God will do what He says He will do.
Then trusting Him to do what He says He will do.
So I pass your test for not inflicting child abuse as I do not tell them or anyone they are going to hell or the lake of fire because they commit sin.
So what damage do I do if I tell them God loves them and His only begotten son died for them and if they would believe in Him that He would give them a wonderful life with Him in a place called heaven one day?
Now if I am wrong and there is no God, Jesus, heaven or lake of fire and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they are buried and then nothing.
Please explain the damage I have caused to them.
Be specific.
If you are wrong when you tell your children there is no God, Jesus, heaven or lake of fire and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they find themselves facing Jesus and He says to them depart ye into everlasting punishment I never knew you.
Being specific.
You will be directly responsible for their being in the lake of fire.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by caldron68, posted 02-07-2009 12:28 AM caldron68 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by bluescat48, posted 02-07-2009 1:54 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 157 by Modulous, posted 02-07-2009 2:01 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 164 by shalamabobbi, posted 02-08-2009 12:14 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 174 by Rrhain, posted 02-08-2009 7:01 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 154 of 382 (498033)
02-07-2009 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Percy
02-07-2009 4:37 AM


Re: To Believers
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Get used to ICANT's misinterpretations when he doesn't have an answer,
Please explain how I broke the Forum Guideline number 8. Avoid any form of misrepresentation. Which I presume you are referring too.
In Message 137
I can not correct my behavior with knowledge of what you are referring too.
You can do this by e-mail if you prefer as it is off topic.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Percy, posted 02-07-2009 4:37 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by NosyNed, posted 02-07-2009 1:53 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 158 by Percy, posted 02-07-2009 2:48 PM ICANT has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 155 of 382 (498037)
02-07-2009 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
02-07-2009 1:26 PM


Irony!!!
Percy writes:
Get used to ICANT's misinterpretations when he doesn't have an answer,
ICANT writes:
Please explain how I broke the Forum Guideline number 8. Avoid any form of misrepresentation. Which I presume you are referring too.
The word "misinterpretation" does not mean "misrepresentation". You do not claim that someone said something they didn't you are just unable to understand what is being said. That, btw, is the reason, IIRC, you were asked to stay out of the cosmology threads. You had no clue about what was said to you or what you read elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 1:26 PM ICANT has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 156 of 382 (498038)
02-07-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
02-07-2009 12:25 PM


Re: To Believers
So let's take a situation. In the time from ~30 C. E. to the end of the middle ages, are all the people in such places as India, China, Northern Europe, The Americas, Australia & the Pacific Islands in Hell? They would never have heard of Jesus. So where are they?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 12:25 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 157 of 382 (498039)
02-07-2009 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
02-07-2009 12:25 PM


Re: To Believers
So what damage do I do if I tell them Zeus loves them and Hercules laboured for them and if they would believe in him that he would give them a wonderful life with him in a place called Elysium one day?
Now if I am wrong and there is no Zeus, Hercules, Elysium or Tartarus and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they are buried and then nothing.
Please explain the damage I have caused to them.
Be specific.
If you are wrong when you tell your children there is no Zeus, Hercules, Elysium or Tartarus and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they find themselves facing Zeus and he says to them depart ye into everlasting punishment I never knew you.
Being specific.
You will be directly responsible for their being in gloomy pit of torment and suffering.

Rhetoric aside - I was actually wondering if anybody had seen the topic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 12:25 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 9:10 PM Modulous has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 158 of 382 (498044)
02-07-2009 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
02-07-2009 1:26 PM


Re: To Believers
ICANT writes:
Percy writes:
Get used to ICANT's misinterpretations when he doesn't have an answer,
Please explain how I broke the Forum Guideline number 8. Avoid any form of misrepresentation. Which I presume you are referring too.
Wow! Is this pure irony or what? Thanks, ICANT, I couldn't have come up with a better example of your interpretational problems!
Tell me, during your sermons, do you ever see your congregation trading lots of puzzled looks with one another? In fact, given your problems discerning reality, are you *sure* you're a pastor in a church and not a God-shouter on some street corner?
I'm sorry for making fun at your expense, ICANT, but come on, how about developing a habit of reading carefully before responding, and of developing a bit of reticence so that your errors look more tentative and considered instead of like large-scale collide-at-top-speed-with-wall blunders.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 1:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 4:12 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 159 of 382 (498050)
02-07-2009 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Percy
02-07-2009 2:48 PM


Re: To Believers
Hi Percy,
Enjoy yourself.
Just educate me please.
In Message 136 caldron68 said:
quote:
BTW! It's not what YOU personally have missed by believing in a fantasy, it's the carnage that you have left in your wake.
I am dumb, so I looked up carnage in the dictionary.
I found this:
1. Massive slaughter, as in war; a massacre.
2. Corpses, especially of those killed in battle.
Source
Now I am one who takes things literal.
So I believe a man says what he means and means what he says.
Therefore I asked caldron68 in Message 137 to:
quote:
So enlighten me on the "Massive slaughter" I have left in my past.
Be very specific.
Percy have I misinterpreted anything so far?
In Message 138 caldron68 asks me:
caldron68 writes:
ICANT writes:
So enlighten me on the "Massive slaughter" I have left in my past.
Be very specific.
Ok, how many children have you introduced to the concept of hell, the lake of fire, eternal damnation, torment, torture, everlasting pain and suffering?
Now caldron68 is inferring that I have caused massive slaughter of these children because I introduced them to the concept of hell, the lake of fire, eternal damnation, torment, torture everlasting pain and suffering.
Is this where I misinterpret what he is saying or am I misinterpreting what he meant to say?
Since I am not into second guessing what anybody means I respond in
Message 140.
ICANT writes:
caldron68 writes:
Ok, how many children have you introduced to the concept of hell, the lake of fire, eternal damnation, torment, torture, everlasting pain and suffering?
What does that have to do with Massive slaughter or corpses, especially those killed in battle.?
I was asking for clarification, which I got in Message 145.
quote:
Ok, I agree, carnage was not the correct word to use in this case. Let's use damage instead. Happy?
Now I and any 12 year old that reads this thread can understand that caldron68 is telling me I damaged these children by introducing them to the concept of eternal punishment in hell.
He then states the charges for me to answer, which he could have plainly stated in message 136, instead of making the outlandish charges which he did.
quote:
Telling a child that they're going to hell if they sin is child abuse.
Which I answered with I have never told anybody they are going to suffer eternally for sin.
I do tell people that if they refuse God's offer of a full free pardon they will suffer those consequences.
Now at what point did I misinterpret what caldron68 actually said?
Percy writes:
Tell me, during your sermons, do you ever see your congregation trading lots of puzzled looks with one another?
No.
If anyone has a question they stand up and ask the question.
Percy writes:
Wow! Is this pure irony or what? Thanks, ICANT, I couldn't have come up with a better example of your interpretational problems!
I guess that was a big blunder.
But I was asking for clarification.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Percy, posted 02-07-2009 2:48 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 382 (498070)
02-07-2009 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Percy
02-07-2009 9:42 AM


Re: To Believers
Percy writes:
Even God in the Bible acknowledged that he is not the only God when he advised in his first commandment to Moses that the Jews must hold no gods more dear than him.
These are a few examples of scriptures which claim there is one god.
Mark 12:32:
Then the scribe said to him, "Well said, Teacher! You have told the truth that 'God is one, and there is no other besides him.
Romans 3:30:
30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
Ephesians 4:6:
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I Timothy 2:19:
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble
Of course there were false gods referred to in scripture, but they were worshiped by pagan cultures. As well, there were down times when Israel was chastised by God for worshiping them. These were were either man crafted idols or named gods and goddesses of the sun, moon, etc such as Thor, Zeus, etc. I am not aware of any Biblical references of named angels as such which Israel or pagan cultures worshiped as gods.
There is a reference in the book of Revelation where John fell down in obeisance to an angelic messenger from God and the angel rebuked him, stating that he was "a fellow servant" of God and that God only was to be worshiped. The angel begins his revelation to John in Revelation 19:1 and in 20:10 after the angel was finished speaking, John attempts to worship him.
It appears that I'm not going to convince you of anything, Percy. I've been wondering what sort of a deist you were. Perhaps I'm beginning to understand.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Percy, posted 02-07-2009 9:42 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 5:41 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 382 (498073)
02-07-2009 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Modulous
02-07-2009 2:01 PM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
Modulous writes:
So what damage do I do if I tell them Zeus loves them and Hercules laboured for them and if they would believe in him that he would give them a wonderful life with him in a place called Elysium one day?
Now if I am wrong and there is no Zeus, Hercules, Elysium or Tartarus and they live a happy, fulfilled, contented life helping all those they can and harming no one along the way.
When they die they are buried and then nothing.
Please explain the damage I have caused to them.
I'll take a shot at that one. It's not too hard to figure out.
1. If you have no evidence whatsoever for the doctrines you are instilling into their impressionable minds full of mush you are deceiving them with false information. You are giving them a false trust in a totally unsupported deity. Deception is not edifying. Deception instills ignorance. That is harmful.
2. If atheism is truth, which most agree is not the case, you still do them harm. See #1
3. Deceptive doctrines of religion instilled a false security in that religion. If this is deeply ingrained into young people, they are more reluctant to search for a faith undergirded by a reasonable measure of evidence.
4. Some pagan religions required the passing of children through fire and human sacrifice. These religions had no undergirding evidence supportive to them. Islamic Jihad is another extremely deadly example of this, as well as the Inquisitions of the popes and bishops of Rome during the dark ages.
At least the New Testament religion ICANT is teaching is based on a book which is undergirded by a reasonable amount of evidence. As well it does no physical harm to anyone. The positive effect of it is that it instills accountability and moral principle into young people.
Edited by Buzsaw, : change a word

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Modulous, posted 02-07-2009 2:01 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Coyote, posted 02-07-2009 10:56 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 6:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 168 by Modulous, posted 02-08-2009 6:42 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 262 by RCS, posted 03-01-2009 1:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 162 of 382 (498075)
02-07-2009 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Buzsaw
02-07-2009 9:10 PM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
And what about the Rigveda?
How do your points #1 through #4 also apply to that document?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 9:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 11:53 PM Coyote has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 382 (498078)
02-07-2009 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Coyote
02-07-2009 10:56 PM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
Coyote writes:
And what about the Rigveda?
How do your points #1 through #4 also apply to that document?
This thread is not about the specifics of various religions but my short answer to your question would be to cite something significant relative to archeology, fulfilled prophecy, evidence of something miraculous which would support the divinity of the book, and cultural aspects relative to what this religion has achieved for the social life of it's followers; achievements like prosperity, freedom, education, commerce, etc.
Perhaps you would be interested in opening a thread on the Hindu Regvida religion relative to the above criterion. These criterion have been debated relative to the Bible. Why not subject some of the pagan religions to comparison with the Bible relative to the above criterion if you think you have a case. (ABE: Imo it would be like pitting a Model T Ford against a 2009 Porsche 911 GT3. )
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add sentence as noted.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Coyote, posted 02-07-2009 10:56 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Coyote, posted 02-08-2009 1:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 164 of 382 (498080)
02-08-2009 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by ICANT
02-07-2009 12:25 PM


Re: To Believers
The only difference in a person in heaven and hell.
The one in heaven is a saved sinner and the one in hell is a lost sinner.
So whether you are a sinner or not is a mute point.
John tell us the only reason a person goes to hell or the lake of fire as I prefer is:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John says you are condemned because you have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Not because you are a sinner.
Not because you have not joined the church.
Not because you have not been baptized.
Not because you have not lived for God.
Not because you have not followed God's rules.
Not because you have not done many wonderful works.
Not because you have not helped the poor and downtrodden.
But because you have not believed in the only begotten Son of God.
That would involve believing that God IS.
As well as believing God will do what He says He will do.
Then trusting Him to do what He says He will do.
I like this idea... that of simply believing in Jesus and now I can carry on with my poor/irresponsible conduct and not worry about it anymore..
Kind of like the church's selling of indulgences a thousand years ago,
but in this more enlightened age the price tag has been removed in keeping with Isaiah 55:1...everyone that thirsteth, ..buy wine and milk without money and without price.
And to the point of the topic..
accepting the ToE or BB hinders this process of deep significant change in individuals because?...
You say so..
I am making a retraction of one of my former posts about belief having become the 'b' word and being silly.
This is truly frightening..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2009 12:25 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 165 of 382 (498082)
02-08-2009 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Buzsaw
02-07-2009 11:53 PM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
Perhaps you would be interested in opening a thread on the Hindu Regvida religion relative to the above criterion. These criterion have been debated relative to the Bible. Why not subject some of the pagan religions to comparison with the Bible relative to the above criterion if you think you have a case. (ABE: Imo it would be like pitting a Model T Ford against a 2009 Porsche 911 GT3. )
The Rigveda is not a religion, but rather a sacred text.
The reason for my post was that your points #1 through #4 apply equally to that text as to the Bible. But because you are a true believer in the Bible (e.g., you called other religions "pagan"), you won't, indeed can't see the parallels. A true believer in the Rigveda might feel the same way.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Buzsaw, posted 02-07-2009 11:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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