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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 181 of 382 (498178)
02-08-2009 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Percy
02-08-2009 8:08 PM


Percy writes:
quote:
Here's the operative definition from yourdictionary.com:
Argumentum ad dictionary? Surely you know better than that.
I do notice that there has been considerable substitution of the words "supernatural being" and "god," which I think is causing some of the confusion. God may be a supernatural being, but not all supernatural beings are gods.
I don't see any particular problem with the idea that the devil, a supernatural being, is not quite on the same level as god, also a supernatural being. Not in the question of good/evil, but in the question of power. For example, one theology concept states that the devil only has the power you give him. God, on the other hand, can act despite you.
I'm not saying that any particular person on this board ascribes to it, but the concept of the devil not being "a god" doesn't bother me in and of itself.
Of course, this means we need to see if the person claiming that the devil isn't "a god" is treating the devil differently than god for a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 8:08 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 382 (498179)
02-08-2009 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Percy
02-08-2009 8:08 PM


Re: God and god
Percy writes:
I said that Satan was one of the gods in whom Christians believe.
Can you support this with some links or other evidence, that Christians, by and large, believe in Satan as a god?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 8:08 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Rrhain, posted 02-08-2009 9:04 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 185 by iano, posted 02-09-2009 6:49 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 7:15 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 183 of 382 (498180)
02-08-2009 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Buzsaw
02-08-2009 8:57 PM


Buzsaw writes:
quote:
Can you support this with some links or other evidence, that Christians, by and large, believe in Satan as a god?
I believe Percy is doing the "looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" method of reasoning. And, indeed, it makes sense: If Christians treat the devil as having qualities X, Y, and Z which we normally attribute to gods, then it necessarily follows that the devil is a god, no matter how much Christians would like to devalue the power of the devil. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
Theists often have a hard time with evil as a primal force the way they do for good. They want a sort of "separate but equal" attitude about it so that they can have their focus of good triumph over it. This is one of the unique facets of Scandanavian theology: The bad guys win.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2009 8:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 9:03 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 184 of 382 (498260)
02-09-2009 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
02-08-2009 8:46 PM


Re: Harmful Doctrine
This is a strawman. Abrahamic religions do no such thing. They teach that if one does not receive the sacrifice, in their afterlife God will do something to them. There's a huge difference in teaching fiery stuff and actually requiring theburning of living men women and children as sacrifices here in this life as some pagan religions did.
Right, that's what I said. If you don't accept this human sacrifice you get burned for all eternity. That's what some followers of some Abrahamic faiths are certain will happen. They require acceptance of a human sacrifice, the consequences for not are burning in a lake of fire. So it isn't a strawman, instead it was my humourous take on you being so seemingly outraged by sacrifices and burnings.
Modulous, there are no significant fulfilled prophecies in any of the Islamic scriptures which are the Haddith, the Sunnas and the Koran. There are no archaeological significant evidences to show that the Islamic Allah rendition of a god is true and no evidence that Islamic doctrines produce free, prosperous and productive cultures etc. Islamic scriptures have produced no evidence of anything before the 6th Century, AD. All there is before this are distorted renditions of data relative to the Biblical record, i.e. Johnny come lately bare assertions. Those scriptures are all bare assertions. Some of the scriptures in the Biblical record have significant evidence to support them.
The Biblical record wins hands down relative to evidence pertaining to the above. It is fool heartedly of you to try to compare these two religions. You're either showing your ignorance or doggedly denying cited evidences relative to the Biblical record which have been cited over the years here at EvC.
Hmm. I am sure that I said
quote:
Naturally, you will say something like 'but my evidence is better!', but really Buz - I have no stake in whose evidence is 'better' whereas you clearly do. And both have appalling standards of evidence that don't lead to the conclusions that those that tout those evidences are trying to make us believe they do. Naturally you will protest, but so do they.
How about you doing a thread on the so called evidences of Islam which you were allegedly apprised of by your visit to the Mosque?
I cannot bring myself to defend such contorted logic as apologetics, even for the sake of argument, with the required level of dogheadedness. I would call it 'so called' like I call your 'so called' evidence, but there doesn't seem any reason to highlight that the claims were only 'allegedly' made to me. Do you have reason to doubt that Muslims make the kinds of claims I highlighted, or do you doubt that I went to a Mosque and allowed myself to hear them?
For what it is worth, I have offered for several of my Muslim friends to sign up here to do that very thing, but the only ones that have even sounded like they might one day do it have been the ones that are least likely to rely on apologetics and other such 'evidence' for their faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2009 8:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 185 of 382 (498262)
02-09-2009 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Buzsaw
02-08-2009 8:57 PM


Re: God and god
Buzz writes:
Can you support this with some links or other evidence, that Christians, by and large, believe in Satan as a god?
One way to look at it would be to accept that Christians believe there are gods. These gods can be idols such as Artemis or the Israelites golden calf. They can also be money, power, drugs etc. But who is behind all these gods if not satan?
In which case, the worshipping of these gods is in fact aimed at satan. It is him and what he stands for that is be loved and obeyed. Would this not render him a god - the god in fact?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2009 8:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 186 of 382 (498265)
02-09-2009 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by iano
02-08-2009 8:19 PM


iano writes:
I didn't say that it did. That Christians give their panoply of gods different names than the ancient Greeks is mere vocabulary. The fact of the matter is that Christians, just like ancient pagans, believe in many supernatural beings who interfere in the affairs of men. There's one who they worship, a number whom they respect, and one who they fear.
But there is no panapoly (whatever that is) of Gods in Christianity. There's God and there's gods. One wouldn't imagine so much significance in the capitalization of a letter - but there you have it.
Iano, your errors are becoming epic.
First, there's no such word as "panapoly". The word is "panoply".
Second, if you don't know what the word "panoply" means, then you can't know whether there's any such thing as a "panoply of gods".
Third, I said "panoply of gods" with a lower case "g". You quoted my precise words, including the lower case "g" in gods. Yet when you replied you said "panapoly (sic) of Gods" with an upper case "G", which is not what I said. And presumably you had just read the messages where I had already corrected you about this three times, yet here you are repeating the error yet again for a fourth time.
Can you get nothing right?
Anyway, Christianity most certainly does have a panoply of gods: God, Gabriel, Michael, Satan, etc. This is just like many ancient religions. I've been using the example of the religion of ancient Greece which had its own panoply of gods: Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Aphrodite, etc.
I'm not sure that satan is a god by the biblical definition. By that account he's to be destroyed - which might well mean end of existance. In biblical terms he's that which lies behind the myriad of gods thus far identifed: money, diana, etc
Gods, devils, angels, sprites, spirits, ghosts, leprechauns, elves, these are all supernatural beings or entities for which there is no objective evidence and in whose existence many people believe anyway.
What? You haven't been paying attention to the preachings in this very thread of the Right Reverand ICANT?
I've been nabbed!!
Yeah, no kidding. Like it wasn't bloody obvious.
ICANT's solution to the multiple gods problem of Christianity is that angels and devils are just alternate manifestations of the one true God.
Forgive me if I don't trawl back but what was the problem in the first place? One that required this rather unusual solution?
You want me to forgive you for making me go over and over the same ground wasting an hour writing so you don't have to do five minutes of reading? Gee, that's a tough one, let me get back to you on that. In the meantime, could you please put in some effort and be informed about the thread you're participating in in your next reply? It would be much appreciated.
The problem with Christian belief in God, the angels and the devil is that it means that Christians believe in more than one god. ICANT gets around this by arguing that the angels and the devil are merely alternate manifestations of the one true God. In his view Satan is not an independent entity and cannot do anything that is outside of God's will.
I replied to ICANT that that means that evil is God's will, and ICANT replied that this was correct.
As to who's right, you or Buzsaw or ICANT, you're all arguing about fiction. None of you are right.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by iano, posted 02-08-2009 8:19 PM iano has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 187 of 382 (498266)
02-09-2009 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Buzsaw
02-08-2009 8:57 PM


Re: God and god
Buzsaw writes:
Can you support this with some links or other evidence, that Christians, by and large, believe in Satan as a god?
You're getting caught up in vocabulary. God or god or angel or devil or spirit or sprite or elf or ghost, these are all just various designations for supernatural beings. The distinctions between them are important to Christians because some of them are part of your belief system. To Christians, God is real, angels are real, the devil is real, but elves and sprites are not real. To non-Christians none of them are real, they're just different types of supernatural beings that don't really exist.
So no, I'm not saying that Christians believe in Satan as a god. Why would I try to tell Christians what specific words to use when describing their beliefs? But Christians do believe in a host of supernatural beings. One of those supernatural beings is God whom they worship. Another of those supernatural beings is Satan whom they fear.
And God is apparently not the absolute lord over his domain, because as you yourself have told us, God and Satan are in a battle for the souls of men. Whether you prefer to think of Satan as a "lesser god" or a "lesser supernatural entity" doesn't change the reality that just like ancient Greeks believed in Zeus, Hera and the rest, you believe in God, Satan and the angels. There's no difference of any substance.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2009 8:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 02-09-2009 7:31 AM Percy has replied
 Message 190 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:47 AM Percy has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 188 of 382 (498269)
02-09-2009 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Percy
02-09-2009 7:15 AM


Re: God and god
A small point of order.
And God is apparently not the absolute lord over his domain, because as you yourself have told us, God and Satan are in a battle for the souls of men.
That satan is utilised in the carrying out of God's plan doesn't mean God's Lordship is anything less than absolute.
Like, if satan "wins" a man it merely means Gods wrath will be have something to get his teeth into - namely the man. If God "wins" Gods love will have something to wrap his arms around. Either way, God gets what he wants. Once having served God's purpose, satan is disposed of. What's lacking in absolute about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 7:15 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 8:04 AM iano has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 189 of 382 (498273)
02-09-2009 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
02-09-2009 7:31 AM


Re: God and god
This is ICANT's view, that Satan is not an independent entity. In this view Satan is carrying out God's will by tempting men to reject God's will.
As I've been saying, both these Christian alternatives, of multiple gods on the one hand and of God being the source of both good and evil on the other, contain contradictions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 02-09-2009 7:31 AM iano has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 382 (498275)
02-09-2009 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Percy
02-09-2009 7:15 AM


Re: God and god
Percy writes:
.......you believe in God, Satan and the angels. There's no difference of any substance.
There's a big difference. According to our Biblical record, our god, Jehovah is creator of all. He created and designed Satan, the angels, the beasts/living creatures in his throne room (Revelation), cherubims and seraphims, etc. As I have supported with our scriptures, this god claims to be the only God. How could these creatures be gods when our scriptures say that our god is the only god?
What you are denying is that there are, according to our scriptures, various levels of intelligent creatures in the universe, all of which are created and fashioned/designed by the one true god, Jehovah, which according to our scriptures are not gods.
According to our scriptures, false gods are gods of wood and stone and the imaginations of men which hear not, see not and know nothing. According to our scriptures, angels and other creatures which he has made are members of his kingdom who administer his will in his kingdom where ever he commissions them in his universe.
Just because something is of a higher intelligence, i.e. supernatural to humans does not mean we Biblicalists believe in them as gods, nor do the angels of God regard themselves as gods as per the scripture which I cited where the angel told John the revelator that he (the angel) was a fellow servant of God like John, the human. Did you read that? What do you think it means?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 7:15 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 9:12 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 382 (498277)
02-09-2009 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Rrhain
02-08-2009 9:04 PM


Rrhain writes:
I believe Percy is doing the "looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" method of reasoning. And, indeed, it makes sense: If Christians treat the devil as having qualities X, Y, and Z which we normally attribute to gods, then it necessarily follows that the devil is a god, no matter how much Christians would like to devalue the power of the devil. A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
Theists often have a hard time with evil as a primal force the way they do for good. They want a sort of "separate but equal" attitude about it so that they can have their focus of good triumph over it. This is one of the unique facets of Scandanavian theology: The bad guys win.
As per my message 190 perhaps you would evaluate my comments in that message as to why I think it does not make sense that god who claims the status of the one and only god created other gods. That is just not what the Bible teaches or what Christians, by and large believe.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Rrhain, posted 02-08-2009 9:04 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Rrhain, posted 02-14-2009 4:30 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 192 of 382 (498278)
02-09-2009 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Buzsaw
02-09-2009 8:47 AM


Re: God and god
Buz, what part of "You're getting hung up on vocabulary" didn't you understand? I already said it doesn't matter what label you use, it's still the same thing. A rose by any other name and all that sort of stuff. If you don't like the term "gods" use another term. We all know we're talking about supernatural beings.
You believe in a supernatural realm whose residents interfere in the affairs of man, where God is the ruler and all the other supernatural beings work to implement (the angels) or thwart (the devil) his will. How is this substantially different from the Greek Gods of Mount Olympus whose residents interfere in the affairs of man, and where Zeus is the ruler and all the other supernatural beings work to implement or thwart his will?
The angel told John the revelator that he (the angel) was a fellow servant of God like John, the human. Did you read that? What do you think it means?
As I told you the first time, it means there's a contradiction in your Bible, since in the very first commandment God makes explicit reference to other gods that he prefer man not favor over him.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:47 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:29 PM Percy has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 193 of 382 (498280)
02-09-2009 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by iano
02-08-2009 7:04 PM


Re: God and god
Stragler writes:
If your faith stipulates that there is one true God then by definition any other supernatural beings, no matter how powerful, are not God.
That's not the definition I'm using. The definition I'm using is that God created us and angels - incl. satan.
Well by that definition I am not sure that Zeus would qualify as a god either then. Zeus was not uncreated accoording to Greek mythology. But he was definitely considered to be a god.
Straggler writes:
However by the measure of any polytheistic religion Satan would seem to qualify as a god by most criteria.
It would depend very much on the criteria of course.
If the measure of God is that he isn't created, then satan can't be a god. Percy seemed to be proposing that Christians need suppose satan as God - simply by believing he, satan, exists.
Are gods necessarily uncreated? Was Zeus not considered to be a god?
Can your omnipotent God not create a god?
Thus not.
Christianity including Satan is polytheistic in exactly the same sense that that belief in the Greek gods is also polytheistic (albeit with less options in the case of God + Satan)
No?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by iano, posted 02-08-2009 7:04 PM iano has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 194 of 382 (498303)
02-09-2009 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Percy
02-08-2009 7:56 PM


Re: God and god
The way I've been saying this is that Christians *believe* in both God and Satan, but they only worship God. "God" is the name they give to the god that they worship. "Satan" is the name they give to the god that they fear.
Yes. I think we are on the same page regarding this.
I believe that the term for this is monolatrist.
Monolatry Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
That is one who believes in more than one god but who worships one god exclusively. For example those dedicated to Apollo in ancient Greece would have been described by the term monolatrist as they worshipped only Apollo despite believing in the existence of the whole pantheon of Greek gods.
I think the term applies equally to Christians who also believe in Satan for the reasons that you specify.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:56 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 195 of 382 (498306)
02-09-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
02-08-2009 7:54 PM


Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
ICANT's solution to the multiple gods problem of Christianity is that angels and devils are just alternate manifestations of the one true God.
I don't think I said that.
Percy in Message 127
Percy writes:
In my Message 116 I say:
Percy writes:
You said that "the devil will and has taken everything in his power and used it to get people to not accept God's offer of a free full pardon since the incident in the garden with the first man."
You also said the devil has no free will but can only do God's will.
Therefore, it is God's will that the devil work at getting people to reject God.
Right?
To which ICANT replies in his Message 124
ICANT writes:
Correct.
Anyone (besides ICANT) care to comment?
--Percy
1) Message 128 I said:
I simply said I believe the devil is using anything and everything to keep people from accepting God's offer of a free full pardon.
2)Message 102 I said:
The devil is a created evil being.
I have never found where the devil had free will and could do what
he wanted to do. For him to be a god that would be necessary.
3) In Message 114 I said:
Percy God created angels to do everything He desired them to do. I find where none had a choice. They were created to serve Him in whatever capacity He gave them.
The devil is an arch angel in charge of 1/3rd of the angels and is subordinate to God and Michael.
Now how you can get that I believe the angels and the devil are manifestations of God is beyond my reasoning.
I do believe that GOD IS.
— elohiym plural def. rulers, judges, divine ones.
And that he is manifest in three different ways as:
God the Father, all knowledge.
Yehovah def. the existing one.
God the Son, the physical God man that died on the cross.
— Immanuwel def. God with us.
God the Holy Spirit which keeps those who are born again and guides them in all truth.
godesh def. holiness, sacredness of God.
ruwach def. wind, breath, mind, spirit.
Those three are the only manifestations of the one God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:54 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 4:02 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 198 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 4:12 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 4:30 PM ICANT has replied

  
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