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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 196 of 382 (498313)
02-09-2009 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by ICANT
02-09-2009 3:43 PM


Re: Re Gods
Hi ICANT,
Percy writes:
ICANT's solution to the multiple gods problem of Christianity is that angels and devils are just alternate manifestations of the one true God.
I believe Pecy wrote "alternate" manifestation.
Also, as per Dictionary.com:
quote:
Manifestation: Man`i*fes*ta"tion\, n. [L. manifestatio: cf. F. manifestation.] The act of manifesting or disclosing, or the state of being manifested; discovery to the eye or to the understanding; also, that which manifests; exhibition; display; revelation; as, the manifestation of God's power in creation.
Satin would fall under this definition. "Creation" is one manifestation and angels are another.
The devil is an arch angel in charge of 1/3rd of the angels and is subordinate to God and Michael.
Now how you can get that I believe the angels and the devil are manifestations of God is beyond my reasoning.
Because god created them.
Those three are the only manifestations of the one God.
We would also be considered a manifestation of his power.
- Oni

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 3:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 4:17 PM onifre has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 197 of 382 (498314)
02-09-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Percy
02-08-2009 7:56 PM


Re: God and god
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
The way I've been saying this is that Christians *believe* in both God and Satan, but they only worship God. "God" is the name they give to the god that they worship. "Satan" is the name they give to the god that they fear.
Why should anyone fear Satan?
He can't do anything that God doesn't allow him to do.
God is the one to be feared. Because if your name is not written in the book of life you will be cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Percy, posted 02-08-2009 7:56 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 198 of 382 (498315)
02-09-2009 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by ICANT
02-09-2009 3:43 PM


Re: Re Gods
Let's recap briefly
Percy writes:
This issue about whether Satan's actions are God's will sprang from my point that Christians believe in at least two gods, two supernatural beings, God and Satan. ICANT gets around this by explaining that Satan is just another angel, just another projection of God's will. In this view Satan is not another supernatural being, but just another manifestation of the one God.
This is based on the following exchange:
Percy writes:
You said that "the devil will and has taken everything in his power and used it to get people to not accept God's offer of a free full pardon since the incident in the garden with the first man."
You also said the devil has no free will but can only do God's will.
Therefore, it is God's will that the devil work at getting people to reject God.
Right?
To which ICANT replies in his Message 124
ICANT writes:
Correct.
So we have
1) God created Satan
2) Satan has no free-will
Thus Satan is a manifestation of God's will. As concluded by Percy.
If this in not what you intended to say then now is the time to change your position. We all make mistakes and nobody should be held to a position that is the result of misunderstanding even if that misunderstanding is of their own doing. But that is indisputably what you said at the time.
So what do you mean exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 3:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 4:35 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 199 of 382 (498316)
02-09-2009 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by onifre
02-09-2009 4:02 PM


Re Gods
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Because god created them.
Genesis 1:1 In the begining God created the heaven and the earth.
Thus they are a manifestation of God.
Genesis 1:27 God created mankind in his own image.
Thus that makes man a manifestation of God.
Genesis 1:21a And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth.
Thus that makes them a manisfestation of God.
Is that what you are saying oni?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 4:02 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 4:42 PM ICANT has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 200 of 382 (498319)
02-09-2009 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by ICANT
02-09-2009 3:43 PM


Re: Re Gods
ICANT, you had ample opportunity to be clear the first time around, you chose to be cryptic. The fact that you're only now realizing the implications of what you said is you're own sad fault. I had said that believing in both God and devil means that Christians believe in multiple gods (supernatural beings, if you like). Your solution for this was that the devil is actually just a projection of the will of God and so is not another god, remember?
Naturally this conflicts with the views of other Christians and is what prompted this exchange between you and Buzsaw:
ICANT writes:
Buzsaw writes:
does not mean that God has purposely dispatched the Satan to deceive the world.
If that is not what his job is, what is his job?
Was Peter wrong when he said:
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
But if his mission is other than deceiving all mankind into not accepting God's free full pardon, Why is God allowing so many to be deceived?
Enlighten me Brother.
God Bless,
Naturally Buzsaw enlightened you, but your responses trailed off into crypticness and ambiguity, leaving Buzsaw nothing to reply to. But you haven't changed your mind, have you? You still believe that the devil can only do what God allows him to do, right? You just don't have the guts to argue the point with other Christians.
So should I guess that you'd now like to change your position? Would you now like to concede that Christians *do* believe in more than one supernatural being?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 3:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 5:06 PM Percy has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 201 of 382 (498320)
02-09-2009 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Straggler
02-09-2009 4:12 PM


Re Gods
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
1) God created Satan
2) Satan has no free-will
I believe God created the evil devil, satan, serpent, whatever you want to call that evil one.
I believe he was created for a specific purpose to give man a choice as I have stated many times.
He does not have free will as he is a tool of God created for a specific purpose.
I was a contractor and over the years I created several tools that helped me get the job done so as to reach the result I wanted.
Does that mean those tools are a manifestation of me?
If they are please explain how they are.
If they are not please explain how a tool that God created to reach the result He wanted is a manifestation of Him.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 4:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 7:35 PM ICANT has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 202 of 382 (498321)
02-09-2009 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by ICANT
02-09-2009 4:17 PM


Re: Re Gods
Hi ICANT,
Genesis 1:1 In the begining God created the heaven and the earth.
Thus they are a manifestation of God.
Genesis 1:27 God created mankind in his own image.
Thus that makes man a manifestation of God.
Genesis 1:21a And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth.
Thus that makes them a manisfestation of God.
Is that what you are saying oni?
As it pertains to this discussion, yes. And since you said angels are created by god, they too are a manifestation of his. Agreed?

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 4:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 6:22 PM onifre has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 203 of 382 (498324)
02-09-2009 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Percy
02-09-2009 4:30 PM


Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
So should I guess that you'd now like to change your position? Would you now like to concede that Christians *do* believe in more than one supernatural being?
First of all I can only speak for myself. Everybody else will have to speak for themselves.
I believe in one God.
I believe that one God who is manifest in 3 different ways created billions of supernatural angels. Of which 1/3rd was evil angels who has the devil as their leader.
These angels were created to preform specific jobs and they do them without question.
So yes I believe in angels.
The Bible tells me God created angels.
The Bible does not tell me God created gods.
Now if you want to insist the angels are gods I can't stop you. It is within your free will to believe anything you want.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 4:30 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 6:10 PM ICANT has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 204 of 382 (498325)
02-09-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by ICANT
02-09-2009 5:06 PM


Re: Re Gods
ICANT writes:
The Bible does not tell me God created gods.
Now if you want to insist the angels are gods I can't stop you. It is within your free will to believe anything you want.
Christians like to differentiate themselves from pagan religions by pointing out that they believe in one God, but in reality Christians believe in many gods, just like pagans. They simply attach the label "God" (capital G) to the head god, then attach other labels like angels to the other gods.
But how are angels different from the lesser pagan gods, such as Greek gods like Hermes. Hermes could fly freely between the immortal and mortal worlds. Can't angels do the same? Hermes could perform miracles. Can't angels do the same? There is no substantial difference between the minor gods of the ancient Greeks and Christian angels. In reality Christians believe in a host of supernatural beings, just like the ancient Greeks, and the fact that they prefer the label "angels" instead of "gods" is just a matter of nomenclature.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : "Gods" changed to "gods" in one place to avoid confusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 5:06 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 8:18 PM Percy has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 205 of 382 (498326)
02-09-2009 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by onifre
02-09-2009 4:42 PM


Re Gods
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
As it pertains to this discussion, yes. And since you said angels are created by god, they too are a manifestation of his. Agreed?
Not agreed.
I take exception to your interpretation of Webster.
So according to your definition you give from Dictionary.com from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
You can conclude that everything God created is a manifestation of God?
quote:
Manifestation: Man`i*fes*ta"tion\, n. [L. manifestatio: cf. F. manifestation.] The act of manifesting or disclosing, or the state of being manifested; discovery to the eye or to the understanding; also, that which manifests; exhibition; display; revelation; as, the manifestation of God's power in creation.
English wasn't my best subject so help me out here oni.
1) The act of manifesting or disclosing,
2) or the state of being manifested;
3) discovery to the eye or to the understanding;
4) also, that which manifests;
..a) exhibition;
..b) display;
..c) revelation;
5) as.
Definition of as from Dictionary.com
as 1. to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly; equally:
6) the manifestation of God's power in creation.
I get from that God's power is revealed, displayed, and exhibited, made visible, and disclosed, in creation.
I don't get everything God created is a manifestation of God.
So please explain where I went wrong in my analysis.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 4:42 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 6:59 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 207 by Rahvin, posted 02-09-2009 7:01 PM ICANT has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 206 of 382 (498328)
02-09-2009 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by ICANT
02-09-2009 6:22 PM


Re: Re Gods
Hi ICANT,
ICANT writes:
So please explain where I went wrong in my analysis.
Gladly.
I get from that God's power is revealed, displayed, and exhibited, made visible, and disclosed, in creation.
Yes, and thus it would follow that anything that God has created is a manifestation of his power. "Creation" was the example used in the dictionary, I thought you'd see the correlation to the devil. If it's not a manifestation of God's power, then who?
The devil, angels, etc, are created by God, yes?
I get from that God's power is revealed, displayed, and exhibited, made visible, and disclosed, in creation.
Yes, by the one example to give the word "manifestation" context in dictionary.com, it is "creation" that is a manifestation of His power. But, it would follow, using that example sentence of that definition, that saying "The devil and angels are a manifestation of Gods power" is also, correct.
I don't get everything God created is a manifestation of God.
Because you are using the example as an absolute to only mean "creation", when the main focus of that sentence is "His power". His power in "creation", in creating angels, to include the one that went bad. In any other thing that we don't know about. It is the manifestation of His power, period.
So please explain where I went wrong in my analysis.
Hope I did.
- Oni

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 6:22 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 207 of 382 (498329)
02-09-2009 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by ICANT
02-09-2009 6:22 PM


Re: Re Gods
I have to side with ICANT on this - by the definition you guys are using, all creations from God are manifestations of God. Since that's basically everything other than God Himself, the definition is rather meaningless. If all of God's creations are manifestations of God, then fish and insects, even the Earth and air are manifestations of God as much as Satan is. Even if you only include "supernatural" entities, human beings would qualify, as we supposedly have supernatural "souls."
I do agree that Christianity's monotheism is a bit overstated, though.
Satan can be said to be a God simply because of the power he's supposed to have. YHWH's power is supposed to be greater, but that doesn't mean anything - the Greek god Zeus was "King of the Gods," but Apollo and Poseidon and all the rest were still considered gods as well.
In the same way, Satan is shown to be an entity of supernatural power who is worshiped by some human beings - I'd say that qualifies for most definitions of "god" that don't specifically define that only one "god" can exist (obviously, such definitions like "God is the entity of greatest possible potential" and other such nonsense only work in a monotheistic world and as such aren't meaningful definitions).
In fact, you could also say that many Christian sects (Catholicism, for one) who pray to the saints have a multitude of deities, since they pray to and worship multiple supernatural entities who act as intermediaries to the higher-ranking deity.
This is unsurprising for many reasons. In the OT, various references are made to the gods of other peoples. YHWH specifically tells the Jews not to worship them, but not that they don;'t exist. This was later rationalized as Christianity re-interpreted gods like Baal as "demons" instead of deities.
Later, as Christianity spread, it attracted converts from many polytheistic cultures who merged their own beliefs with their new religion. Voodoo is an example of a semi-Christian polytheistic religion formed by merging Christianity with polytheistic faiths. Santeria is another.
Even the basic Trinity doctrine of many (most?) Christian denominations could be interpreted as polytheistic - the Father, Son and Holy Ghost being three Gods that make one God. Christians tend not to see it that way, but the "three in one" doctrine is very difficult to pin down and define in the first place, considering that simultaneously existing as three entities and one entity is a direct contradiction. I believe Christians tend to refer to such contradictory and seemingly senseless beliefs as "mysteries."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 6:22 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 7:23 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 210 by onifre, posted 02-09-2009 7:37 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 211 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 8:12 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 208 of 382 (498331)
02-09-2009 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rahvin
02-09-2009 7:01 PM


Re: Re Gods
I have to side with ICANT on this - by the definition you guys are using, all creations from God are manifestations of God.
According to ICANT Satan was created in order to provide man a choice. According to ICANT Satan was created specifically to fulfill this function. According to ICANT Satan has no free-will. Unlike man who does have free-will.
Thus he is a manifestation of God's will in a way that man is not.
According to ICANT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rahvin, posted 02-09-2009 7:01 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 209 of 382 (498333)
02-09-2009 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by ICANT
02-09-2009 4:35 PM


Re: Re Gods
Straggler writes:
1) God created Satan
2) Satan has no free-will
Thus Satan is a manifestation of God's will.
ICANT writes:
He does not have free will as he is a tool of God created for a specific purpose.
I was a contractor and over the years I created several tools that helped me get the job done so as to reach the result I wanted.
Does that mean those tools are a manifestation of me?
If they are please explain how they are.
If they are not please explain how a tool that God created to reach the result He wanted is a manifestation of Him.
A manifestation of God's will.
If you create a robot programmed to do your work is that a tool?
Is that a manifestation of your will?
Is the robot responsible for it's own actions or, are you as the creator and programmer of that robot, ultimately to be held responsible for the actions of that robot?
If that robot commits evil acts as a result of your programming is it evil?
Or are you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 4:35 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 9:06 PM Straggler has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 210 of 382 (498334)
02-09-2009 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rahvin
02-09-2009 7:01 PM


Re: Re Gods
I have to side with ICANT on this - by the definition you guys are using, all creations from God are manifestations of God. Since that's basically everything other than God Himself, the definition is rather meaningless. If all of God's creations are manifestations of God, then fish and insects, even the Earth and air are manifestations of God as much as Satan is. Even if you only include "supernatural" entities, human beings would qualify, as we supposedly have supernatural "souls."
If satin is independent of god's will and power, then he(satin) himself is a god.
Which would be Percy's original point that he made in Message 178 to jano,
First Percy's definition for God:
Percy's definition for a god from dictionary.com writes:
god (gd, gd)
noun
any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature; deity, esp. a male deity: typically considered objects of worship.
And he continues by saying...
Percy writes:
I know I must have said the same thing a number of times now, sorry to be so repetitive, but this is the third time you've repeated that I said Christians believe Satan is God when I didn't say that. It is ICANT who believes Satan is a manifestation of God and not an independent entity. Work it out with him.
Where ICANT sums this up,
Message 195
ICANT writes:
The devil is a created evil being.
I have never found where the devil had free will and could do what
he wanted to do. For him to be a god that would be necessary.
Percy God created angels to do everything He desired them to do. I find where none had a choice. They were created to serve Him in whatever capacity He gave them.
So, by ICANT's definition the angels, thus satin, is created by God's will. Satin is not independent of God, according to ICANT, so would be a manifestation of God's will and power.
If satin however was independent of God then he would fall under the god-like definition.
It can't be both.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rahvin, posted 02-09-2009 7:01 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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