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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 211 of 382 (498338)
02-09-2009 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rahvin
02-09-2009 7:01 PM


Re: Re Gods
Straggler has it, "manifestation of God's will," and terminology something like this is what I've been trying to use. And the terminology isn't really mine. I was just trying to translate ICANT's cryptic responses into intelligible English, and that's what he agreed with. According to ICANT, the devil is just a means for God to project his will. Now that he understands the implications of his earlier statements he seems to be trying to distance himself from them, but as far as I can tell he's just getting more obfuscatory.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rahvin, posted 02-09-2009 7:01 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 212 of 382 (498339)
02-09-2009 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Percy
02-09-2009 6:10 PM


Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Christians like to differentiate themselves from pagan religions by pointing out that they believe in one God, but in reality Christians believe in many Gods, just like pagans. They simply attach the label "God" (capital G) to the head god, then attach other labels like angels to the other gods.
Percy as I understand from the Bible the angels were created for specific duties.
They can only do what God will allow them to do, as shown in the example of Job.
Therefore they are not Gods.
I call them angels because the Bible calls them angels.
If the Bible called them gods, I would call them gods.
So it is not me that is attaching labels to them, but you seem to want to label them gods.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 6:10 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 8:32 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 225 by mark24, posted 02-10-2009 5:21 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 382 (498344)
02-09-2009 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Percy
02-09-2009 9:12 AM


Re: God and god
Percy writes:
As I told you the first time, it means there's a contradiction in your Bible, since in the very first commandment God makes explicit reference to other gods that he prefer man not favor over him.
I agree that there are references to other (false as per the Bible) gods which people worship. However I can't agree that angels, which God has created to be his servants (as per the quote from the angel to John) were created as gods. That these creatures are what we term as supernatural simply means that they are of a higher intelligence than humans as per the Bible. Nothing I am aware of in the Bible regards angels/ministers/messengers of God as gods. The Bible does not contradict itself in that regard. What it contradicts is the dictionary definition which you chose to cite.
The #1.a. prime definition of "god" from the Online Dictionary is as follows:
1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
Note that a definition which applies to monotheists may not necessarily apply to polytheists.
Btw, I stand corrected on my comments relative to the term deist. I had confused deism to polytheism.
My problem with your statement to which I had responded was that you stated that Christians believed in Satan and angels as gods. I've been in church circles extensively and long enough to know that that just isn't the case, by and large. I believe the Online Dictionary primary definition of "god" supports my position on that.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 9:12 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 8:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 214 of 382 (498346)
02-09-2009 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by ICANT
02-09-2009 8:18 PM


Re: Re Gods
ICANT writes:
So it is not me that is attaching labels to them, but you seem to want to label them gods.
Uh, no, and you would have noticed I actually said the exact opposite if you'd bothered reading the 2nd paragraph of my post. There were only 2 paragraphs, after all, it isn't asking a lot that you read both of them.
So tell us, ICANT, how are angels different from the lesser pagan gods like Hermes. Hermes could fly freely between the immortal and mortal worlds. Can't angels do the same? Hermes could perform miracles. Can't angels do the same?
There is no substantial difference between the minor gods of the ancient Greeks and Christian angels. In reality Christians believe in a host of supernatural beings, just like the ancient Greeks, and the fact that they prefer the label "angels" instead of "gods" is just a matter of nomenclature.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 8:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 10:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 215 of 382 (498348)
02-09-2009 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Buzsaw
02-09-2009 8:29 PM


Re: God and god
Buz, it doesn't matter what names your Bible uses to refer to supernatural beings. It's the nature of things that matter, not the names. The question is, do those supernatural beings have pretty much the same qualities as, say, the pagan gods of the ancient Greeks. As I've shown, they do.
So you can refer to heaven's lesser gods as angels, and the ancient Greeks can refer to Mount Olympus's lesser gods as gods, but they're pretty much the same thing.
The real difference of opinion is between you and ICANT, who believes that God is the ultimate source of evil.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:59 PM Percy has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 382 (498351)
02-09-2009 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Percy
02-09-2009 8:40 PM


Re: God and god
Percy writes:
Buz, it doesn't matter what names your Bible uses to refer to supernatural beings. It's the nature of things that matter, not the names. The question is, do those supernatural beings have pretty much the same qualities as, say, the pagan gods of the ancient Greeks. As I've shown, they do.
So you can refer to heaven's lesser gods as angels, and the ancient Greeks can refer to Mount Olympus's lesser gods as gods, but they're pretty much the same thing.
The real difference of opinion is between you and ICANT, who believes that God is the ultimate source of evil.
Perhaps I can apply my point to a god, other than what the Bible regards as the one and only true god.
Let's suppose the (abe: alleged pagan god) god, Uranus, god of the sky or cosmos/heavens had messenger creatures which he had created to dispatch his messages to locations in the cosmos where there were intelligent creatures such as planet earth. Would these creature messengers/servants of the god Uranus be regarded as gods by the god Uranus or by the earth beings to which he had dispatched them to? Would Uranus be content if the earth beings to which the messengers were sent began to regard the messengers as gods and begin worshiping the messengers of the god Uranus rather than to worship Uranus, who had created the creatures to promote himself as god of the cosmos?
Edited by Buzsaw, : Insert phrase as noted

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 8:40 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 7:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 217 of 382 (498352)
02-09-2009 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Straggler
02-09-2009 7:35 PM


Re Gods
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
A manifestation of God's will.
Since you have no idea what God's will is let me put forth what Peter said it was.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Now that is what God's will is.
That none are cast into the lake of fire.
But He created the devil so mankind could have a choice between good and evil.
He then created mankind and gave him free will to choose to believe in Him.
Straggler writes:
If you create a robot programmed to do your work is that a tool?
Yes.
Straggler writes:
Is that a manifestation of your will?
Nope.
Straggler writes:
Is the robot responsible for it's own actions or, are you as the creator and programmer of that robot, ultimately to be held responsible for the actions of that robot?
If the robot was to malfunction the creator/programmer would be responsible.
Straggler writes:
If that robot commits evil acts as a result of your programming is it evil?
The robot's programming would have to be changed for it to commit evil acts.
The devil does not malfunction he has been operating as long as man has been around. He has always done exactly what he was programed to do and that is to give mankind a choice.
God's way or Man's way.
The devil does not do any evil deeds as you want to put it. He has mankind to do all his evil deeds for him. He just puts the choices in front of them.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Straggler, posted 02-09-2009 7:35 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2009 7:52 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 218 of 382 (498374)
02-09-2009 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Percy
02-09-2009 8:32 PM


Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
So tell us, ICANT, how are angels different from the lesser pagan gods like Hermes.
I thought I had addressed this in Message 212.
The angels were created.
The angels do what the creator allows them to do.
Hermes was born.
Hermes did as he pleased.
That points out they are very different.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Percy, posted 02-09-2009 8:32 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 7:44 AM ICANT has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 219 of 382 (498400)
02-10-2009 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by ICANT
02-09-2009 10:46 PM


Re: Re Gods
ICANT writes:
The angels were created.
The angels do what the creator allows them to do.
Wrong, but I'll leave you to sort out with Buzsaw whether the devil can only do what God allows him to do.
Hermes was born.
Hermes did as he pleased.
Wrong again. Hermes both followed orders and acted independently, pretty much just like the angels.
That points out they are very different.
Then by your logic since Adam and Eve were created but Cain and Abel were born, they were all very different and not actually all human beings at all, right?
Is this to be your approach, find some difference between angels and the ancient Greek gods and then announce "BIG DIFFERENCE!" Of course different mythologies are going to have different gods in a different milieu, you'll be able to find differences of this nature all day, so good luck with that. Hey, angels have halos, Greek gods don't, big whoop!
The biggest similarity between gods and angels is that they are all just inventions of the human mind. By the way, would this be a good time to mention the Catholic habit of praying to saints? Doesn't having the power to answer prayers make one a god?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Clarify next to last para.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 10:46 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2009 7:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 220 of 382 (498403)
02-10-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Buzsaw
02-09-2009 8:59 PM


Re: God and god
I used the example of Hermes in my posts to ICANT, and he's the messenger god, so since you're hypothesizing messenger gods why don't we use Hermes as the example instead of venturing off into more new territory.
But I think you're still hung up on vocabulary. If you prefer not to use the word god to refer to angels and lesser Greek gods then I'll try to accommodate you. Obviously they're all supernatural beings, angels in which you believe and Greeks gods in which you do not, and they all have pretty much the same powers. They can all not only carry messages, they can also appear and disappear, travel between earth and the dwelling place of the gods, disguise their appearance, i.e., they can all perform miracles.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 8:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2009 11:41 AM Percy has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 221 of 382 (498404)
02-10-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by ICANT
02-09-2009 9:06 PM


Re: Re Gods
Straggler writes:
A manifestation of God's will.
Since you have no idea what God's will is let me put forth what Peter said it was.
Peter can say whatever he likes. You are the one claiming to know Satan's purpose and thus God's will.
God created Satan.
Satan has no free-will.
Therefore Satan's actions are an act of God's will.
Thus Satan is a manifestation of God's will.
Obviously.
If the robot was to malfunction the creator/programmer would be responsible.
Who said anything about it malfunctioning. I am talking about it doing exactly as it was programmed to do.
The robot's programming would have to be changed for it to commit evil acts.
Not if it is programmed to commit evil acts. Then who is evil? The programmer or the robot?
The devil does not do any evil deeds as you want to put it. He has mankind to do all his evil deeds for him. He just puts the choices in front of them.
Whatever Satan does is God's will as he has no free-will of his own (according to you).
If Satan lies it is only because God "programmed" him to lie.
If Satan deceives it is only because God "programmed" him to deceive.
If Satan commits evil it is only because God "programmed" him to be evil.
Satan is a manifestation of God's will.
I don't understand why you are even resisting this point. You seem to agree in all but name.
The alternative is that Christianity is essentially polytheistic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 9:06 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 382 (498439)
02-10-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Percy
02-10-2009 7:51 AM


Re: God and god
Percy writes:
But I think you're still hung up on vocabulary.
It appears that we are both hung up on our respective vocabularies due to being hung up on the respective dictionary definitions of "god." Perhaps we will need to agree to disagree.
The terms supernatural and miraculous do not necessarily apply to the term/word, god. These words may apply to any phenomenon relative to what is commonly regarded as natural to man's earthly realm.
Science researches phenomena in the cosmos which is regarded as mysterious, in that it is not fully understood. Science also discovers new phenomenon as research moves forward. Eventual discovery of other creatures in the universe, of a higher intelligence, is not beyond possibility. Though nothing scientifically can be verified, the concept of beings such as the Bible describes need not necessarily apply to the term/word "god" or as something to be worshiped and revered by man.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 7:51 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Straggler, posted 02-10-2009 12:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 224 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 1:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 223 of 382 (498444)
02-10-2009 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Buzsaw
02-10-2009 11:41 AM


Re: God and god
If Satan does not qualify as a god then I cannot see on what grounds Hermes, Zeus or any of the other Greek gods qualify as gods.
You seem to be suggesting that the ancient Greeks did not actually believe in gods at all and were thus not actually theists by your definition?
Whatever definition of god you choose Christianity including Satan is equally non-monotheistic as was the religion of ancient Greece.
That is the point.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2009 11:41 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 224 of 382 (498450)
02-10-2009 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Buzsaw
02-10-2009 11:41 AM


Re: God and god
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
But I think you're still hung up on vocabulary.
It appears that we are both hung up on our respective vocabularies due to being hung up on the respective dictionary definitions of "god."
You don't seem to be listening to what I'm saying. Once again, I am not hung up on vocabulary. I've said this several times in several ways. I referenced Shakespeare ("A rose by any other name etc..."), I said I'd try to accommodate you if you preferred the term gods not be used in reference to angels, I stated I was concerned not with the names of things but with their natures, that Christian angels and Greek gods are pretty much the same not because I'm insisting on calling angels gods (I'm not), but because they share many of the same qualities.
So when you go on to say things like this:
The terms supernatural and miraculous do not necessarily apply to the term/word, god.
It's irrelevant, because the labels we attach to things isn't what's important. Whether or not supernatural and miraculous are inherent in the definition of "god" (which has multiple definitions anyway), Christian angels and Greek gods are very similar because they share many of the same qualities.
So concerning Christian angels and Greek gods, they can all carry messages, they can all appear and disappear, they can all travel between heaven (or Mount Olympus) and Earth, they can all disguise their appearance, etc. In other words, they are all supernatural beings who can perform miraculous feats and possess miraculous capabilities that they use to interfere in the affairs of men.
Notice also that your comments about the supernatural possibly being very advanced science are also irrelevant. Whether that ever turns out to be true, angels and gods still have the same qualities.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Buzsaw, posted 02-10-2009 11:41 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2009 8:49 PM Percy has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 225 of 382 (498455)
02-10-2009 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by ICANT
02-09-2009 8:18 PM


Re: Re Gods
ICAN'T,
They can only do what God will allow them to do, as shown in the example of Job
God's a right bastard, then, 'cos he made Satan the way he is...
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2009 8:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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