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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 226 of 382 (498460)
02-10-2009 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Percy
02-10-2009 7:44 AM


Re Gods
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Wrong again. Hermes both followed orders and acted independently, pretty much just like the angels.
So are you saying Hermes had free will?
I can't find where an angel made a decision on his own.
Was Hermes the son of Zeus and Maia?
Angels don't have parents.
Since you think angels have free will I will find more differences.
The Greek Gods married. Angels don't marry.
The Greek Gods had kids. Angels don't have kids.
Some of the Greek Gods ate their kids. NA
The Greek Gods died not immortal. Angels don't die they are immortal.
The Greek Gods had wars and killed each other. Angels don' kill each other.
Percy writes:
Then by your logic since Adam and Eve were created but Cain and Abel were born, they were all very different and not actually all human beings at all, right?
Yes they were very different. Adam and Eve had no parents.
Cain and Able were the children of Adam and Eve.
So whatever Adam and Eve was so was Cain and Able.
Now that you brought it up those Greek Gods have a lot more in common with Cain and Able than they do with angels.
They had parents, Cain killed Abel, then got married and had kids, and died.
The Greek gods seem to be more superhumans than gods.
Percy writes:
Hey, angels have halos,
Says who?
Percy writes:
The biggest similarity between gods and angels is that they are all just inventions of the human mind.
Then why argue what they can or can not do if they don't exist?
Percy writes:
Doesn't having the power to answer prayers make one a god?
I wouldn't have the foggiest idea I pray to —
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 7:44 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 227 of 382 (498468)
02-10-2009 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Percy
02-10-2009 1:37 PM


God and god
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
So concerning Christian angels and Greek gods, they can all carry messages,
Hermes was the only Greek god that carried messages.
Gabriel was the only angel that carried messages.
I don't find where any other Greek god, or where any other angel carried messages.
Percy writes:
they can all appear and disappear,
I'll take your word for it.
Percy writes:
they can all travel between heaven (or Mount Olympus) and Earth,
Hermes was the only Greek god allowed to travel to heaven.
Angels are free to travel as their duties require.
Percy writes:
they can all disguise their appearance,
I'll take your word for it.
Percy writes:
In other words, they are all supernatural beings who can perform miraculous feats
That would depend on your definition of what a miracle is.
Paul and Peter performed miracles. They both caused the dead to live again, among other things.
I don't know of any angels or Greek gods doing anything like that yet.
Maybe you know some they have performed and will share.
Percy writes:
and possess miraculous capabilities that they use to interfere in the affairs of men.
I'll take your word for the Greek gods being able to do that.
But the only miraculous capabilities that the devil and his angels have is the ability to put choices in front of human beings and get them to act.
If they don't choose to perform whatever he wants done it will not be done.
In the story of Job the devil used the Sabeans to take all the oxen and asses and kill all the servants but one. Job 1:14, 15.
Fire (lightening) fell from heaven and killed all the sheep and servants but one. Job 1:17
The Chaldeans took the camels and killed all the servants but one. Job 1:17
A big wind (tornado) destroyed the eldest son's house with all Job's children and grandchildren in it. Job 1:18, 19.
The devil had to have special permission to do these things.
Permission was granted in Job 1:12.
As I have said many times the devil is only there so mankind can have a choice.
Without good and evil to choose between there is no choice.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Percy, posted 02-10-2009 1:37 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 6:58 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 249 by ramoss, posted 02-12-2009 6:45 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 228 of 382 (498494)
02-11-2009 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by ICANT
02-10-2009 8:49 PM


Re: God and god
Hi ICANT,
Well, you're pretty much doing what I said I thought you'd do, focusing all your attention on minor irrelevant differences. We're talking about ancient Greek and modern Christian belief in supernatural beings. Whether these beings marry, have kids or engage in war are all minor details.
You seem to have lost your sense of what's important. Say you were playing a guessing game where your partner had to guess what you're thinking of from your description, and you're thinking of angels. What details would you mention first? Would you start by saying they don't marry, have kids or engage in war? No, of course not, your partner would guess Buddhist monks, you'd lose, and after the game your partner would throttle you for being an idiot. If you wanted to win the game you'd start with their supernatural features, because those are what's most important and would allow your partner to guess the answer in the shortest time.
Christians share beliefs with ancient Greeks not because of issues like marriage, kids and war, but because they both believe in a menagerie of supernatural beings.
And you're wrong about angels not engaging in war. The devil is an angel, and according to Buzsaw he's engaged in a war with God himself for the souls of men.
ICANT writes:
Percy writes:
The biggest similarity between gods and angels is that they are all just inventions of the human mind.
Then why argue what they can or can not do if they don't exist?
Because what they can and cannot do governs whether they're supernatural, and by this measure both Christian angels and Greek gods are supernatural. There's no denying that both Christians and ancient Greeks believe in a host of supernatural beings. You're arguing that they don't believe in the same supernatural beings, as if this were a difference of any substance.
Percy writes:
Then by your logic since Adam and Eve were created but Cain and Abel were born, they were all very different and not actually all human beings at all, right?
Yes they were very different. Adam and Eve had no parents.
Cain and Able were the children of Adam and Eve.
So whatever Adam and Eve was so was Cain and Able.
So Adam and Eve were "very different" from Cain and Able, but whatever Adam and Eve were so were Cain and Able. So they were the same but different. Therefore, again by your logic, Christian angels and Greek gods are the same but different, which is just what I've been telling you. And the similarities are significant, the differences minor.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2009 8:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2009 9:04 AM Percy has replied
 Message 231 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 12:10 PM Percy has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 382 (498508)
02-11-2009 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Percy
02-11-2009 6:58 AM


Re: God and god
Percy writes:
And you're wrong about angels not engaging in war. The devil is an angel, and according to Buzsaw he's engaged in a war with God himself for the souls of men.
Right. They do engage in warfare according to the Biblical record. Actually the Bible depicts Satan as a dragon serpent entity who is head of an army of angels. Some think that he was once an angel called Lucifer but I'm not convinced of that. That he and his angels make war is found in Revelation 12:
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 12:8And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 12:9And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Michael who once was sent to help an angel of God, sent by God to give Daniel a messenger. An entity called "the prince of Persia" was hindering God's angel from getting to Daniel so Michael, called a "prince of God" came to the aid of the angel. That's in Daniel, chapter 10.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 6:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 9:08 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 234 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 1:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 230 of 382 (498511)
02-11-2009 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Buzsaw
02-11-2009 9:04 AM


Re: God and god
Don't tell me, tell ICANT.
But whichever way you guys finally agree, both alternatives contain contradictions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2009 9:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 231 of 382 (498520)
02-11-2009 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Percy
02-11-2009 6:58 AM


Re: God and god
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
We're talking about ancient Greek and modern Christian belief in supernatural beings. Whether these beings marry, have kids or engage in war are all minor details.
So you would say a Mack Truck and a yugo are the same thing. They both have body, tires, and power train.
If they were to engage each other head on at 60 miles per hour I believe the truck would be able to continue on but the yugo would have to be carried away from the scene.
If Michael and all the Greek gods were to meet head on Michael would be left standing and all the Greek gods would be dead.
It seems they die Michael does not die.
Percy writes:
Christians share beliefs with ancient Greeks not because of issues like marriage, kids and war, but because they both believe in a menagerie of supernatural beings.
Well they actually share beliefs because the ancient Greeks did not like or understand the Hebrew Pentateuch. So they did like people today who do not like what the Bible says, they changed it to suit themselves.
Genesis was written around 1445 BC and the Greek gods first appear in a poem of the Greek writer Hesiod in 700 BC.
It seems Hesiod did not like the Genesis account of creation so he wrote his own version.
In his version Chaos came first and was the abyss.
Gaea which was earth came out of Chaos.
Eros (Desire) came to cancel every logical thought or act.
Gaea then brought Uranus (the Heaven) Pontus (the Sea) and Mountains to the world.
Uranus job was to cover Gaea with his starry coat.
Soon Uranus and Gaea became the first divine couple in the world.
Gaea bare Uranus 25 children and the story goes on.
Percy writes:
And you're wrong about angels not engaging in war. The devil is an angel, and according to Buzsaw he's engaged in a war with God himself for the souls of men.
I think I was the first to mention the war that is going on between God and the devil.
But this is not a war as the Greek gods were all the time fighting, they don't kill each other.
It is a cold war that is fought for the spirits of mankind.
The Holy Spirit is trying to convince people to believe in God and accept God's offer of a full free pardon.
The devil and his angels trying to convince people God does not exist.
If that fails they then try to convince people He is such a loving God He would not put anybody in the lake of fire.
If that fails they then try to convince people they have plenty of time.
If that fails and people do believe and accept God's offer of a full free pardon they try to convince them they don't need to do anything else.
Just sit down on the stool of do nothing and let everybody else take care of their own destiny. If somebody needs to hear the gospel God will send somebody else to tell them you have done enough already.
I will finish talking about the war in a message to Buz.
Percy writes:
ICANT writes:
Percy writes:
The biggest similarity between gods and angels is that they are all just inventions of the human mind.
Then why argue what they can or can not do if they don't exist?
Because what they can and cannot do governs whether they're supernatural,
But Percy if they don't exist they can't be supernatural.
If they don't exist they just cain't be anything.
Percy writes:
And the similarities are significant, the differences minor.
Angels can not die. They are immortal, that makes them supernatural.
The Greek gods could die. They are mortal, that makes them natural.
Percy's says they are equal or at the most very little difference.
What kind of logic is that?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 6:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 12:23 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 12:41 PM ICANT has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 232 of 382 (498521)
02-11-2009 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ICANT
02-11-2009 12:10 PM


Re: God and god
Sorry, ICANT, you're arguments are getting sillier and more picayune. I doubt they sound convincing even to you.
Why don't you work out with Buzsaw whether God and Satan are at war, and whether it is God's will that Satan tempt men to reject God's will, and once you guys have things all tidied up then you can get back to us.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 12:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 2:04 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 233 of 382 (498523)
02-11-2009 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by ICANT
02-11-2009 12:10 PM


Re: God and god
The Greek gods could die. They are mortal, that makes them natural.
The Greek gods were not mortal.
What atttributes do the greek gods have that Satan does not such that the Greek gods are gods and Satan is not?
Be specific.
The devil and his angels trying to convince people God does not exist.
You have explicitly stated that you consider the devil to have no free-will.
If Satan is just following God's "programming" can you explain how this does not amount to God trying to convince people that God does not exist?
The devil can only do what God designed his tool to do. No?
If I programme a robot to do something I cannot then hold the robot responsible for doing it can I?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 12:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 2:44 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 234 of 382 (498526)
02-11-2009 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Buzsaw
02-11-2009 9:04 AM


Re: God and god
Hi Buz,
It seems Percy is not going to be satisfied until we get in a knock down drag out fight over the devil.
Buzsaw writes:
That he and his angels make war is found in Revelation 12:
I agree this is a physical war where no angel dies physically.
The only difference is you believe it has already happened.
I believe it is yet to happen.
Chapter 12 is tied to chapter 11 with "and".
Which contains the prophecy of the two witnesses in 11:2.
So for the war between the devil and Michael to have taken place already the two witnesses had to have already come been killed and seen around the world laying in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days before they come back to life.
That has not happened yet so the war between the devil and Michael has not happened yet.
Now if I am wrong please explain.
Buzsaw writes:
Michael who once was sent to help an angel of God, sent by God to give Daniel a messenger. An entity called "the prince of Persia" was hindering God's angel from getting to Daniel so Michael, called a "prince of God" came to the aid of the angel. That's in Daniel, chapter 10.
Agreed.
The angel told Daniel of this event.
10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
The devil is in subjection to God and Michael.
The devil could hinder Gabriel but when Michael showed up the devil backed off and let Gabriel do his job.
Michael will chain the devil in the lake of fire. That tells me he has authority over the devil.
The devil ask God for permission to touch Job. He could not do so without God's permission.
That tells me the devil does not have free will, therefore he is not capable of doing anything he wants to do.
The devil's only authority is to get men to do his bidding by convincing them as he did Eve that God doesn't mean what He says.
The devil himself does no evil deeds.
He does lead men to do a lot of evil.
It started with Cain committing the first murder over a religious act.
He decided if Abel was dead God would have to accept what he offered to God.
Mankind has been killing mankind and doing all kind of wicked things to each other every since then.
All this because the devil is there to give man a choice.
If there was no evil devil there would be no choice.
The part Percy does not understand is that it makes no difference what we believe the only thing that matters is what God says.
God says He loves us.
God says God the Son died for us.
God says if we believe and accept that sacrifice He will give us eternal life.
God says when we accept his free full pardon He will send the Holy Spirit to seal our destiny and lead us in all truth. Someday we will know all truth.
We can disagree on everything else the Bible says, but we can not disagree on God's plan of salvation and both get to heaven.
When we finally meet in heaven we can take a stroll down by the river that flows from the throne of God and have a good laugh about our days on EvC.
God Bless You and Yours Brother,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 02-11-2009 9:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 235 of 382 (498528)
02-11-2009 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Percy
02-11-2009 12:23 PM


Re: God and god
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Sorry, ICANT, you're arguments are getting sillier and more picayune. I doubt they sound convincing even to you.
You are the one that brought up the Greek gods.
Now you are saying it is silly and trivial.
So are you now abandoning your argument that the Greek gods are equal to the angels?
Do you concede the point that the Greek gods were born out of poetry that was based on the much earlier Genesis account of creation?
Percy writes:
Why don't you work out with Buzsaw whether God and Satan are at war, and whether it is God's will that Satan tempt men to reject God's will, and once you guys have things all tidied up then you can get back to us.
I don't really see why it makes a difference whether the devil is doing his will or Gods will.
He is there to give mankind a choice between good and evil.
But since it is God's will that mankind have that choice I see the devil making it possible for God's will for mankind to be fulfilled.
Without the evil devil man would not have a choice between good and evil.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 12:23 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 236 of 382 (498530)
02-11-2009 2:20 PM


Of Gods and Angels
As ICANT has left the realm of the rational a dialog with him is no longer possible, so I'll just correct his more significant errors from Message 235 for the sake of any lurkers.
ICANT writes:
You are the one that brought up the Greek gods.
Now you are saying it is silly and trivial.
What I said was that ICANT's arguments are getting sillier and more picayune.
So are you now abandoning your argument that the Greek gods are equal to the angels?
My argument was and remains that both Christians and ancient Greeks believe in a menagerie of supernatural beings.
I don't really see why it makes a difference whether the devil is doing his will or Gods will...etc...
Since it is Buzsaw and ICANT who hold the two opposing positions, I think they should discuss this with each other.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 2:52 PM Percy has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 237 of 382 (498531)
02-11-2009 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Straggler
02-11-2009 12:41 PM


Re: God and god
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
What atttributes do the greek gods have that Satan does not such that the Greek gods are gods and Satan is not?
Be specific.
I don't believe either one is a god.
The Greek gods are mortal.
The devil has to have God's approval to do something so he is not god.
Immortal from Dictionary.com.
1. not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying:
The Greek gods killed each other, they died.
Therefore the Greek gods are mortal.
The devil does not die and will last forever. Rev. 20:10
Therefore the devil is immortal.
Straggler writes:
You have explicitly stated that you consider the devil to have no free-will.
Yes, and I pointed out where he had to get permission to touch Job.
If he had free will why did he have to get permission from God?
Straggler writes:
If Satan is just following God's "programming" can you explain how this does not amount to God trying to convince people that God does not exist?
Well God's will is that all mankind have a choice.
He does not want anyone to have to believe in Him and accept Him as God.
He desires for mankind to so choose of his own volition.
The only way He could accomplish that was to give mankind a choice between good and evil.
That is where the devil comes in.
He tries to get man to not believe in and accept God.
He can only do that if he has God's permission.
Straggler writes:
The devil can only do what God designed his tool to do. No?
I believe the devil is doing exactly what he was designed to do and is doing a perfect job by the results I see.
Straggler writes:
If I programme a robot to do something I cannot then hold the robot responsible for doing it can I?
So now we are to get into why the devil has to spend eternity in the lake of fire along with his angels.
Simply because that is what they were designed for as the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Yea I know it doesn't seem fair to the devil and his angels.
But they were necessary tools so mankind could have a choice.
The animals in the lab don't have a choice either do they?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 12:41 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 6:26 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 238 of 382 (498532)
02-11-2009 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Percy
02-11-2009 2:20 PM


Re: Of Gods and Angels
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
My argument was and remains that both Christians and ancient Greeks believe in a menagerie of supernatural beings.
But the Greek gods were mortal they died.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 2:20 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 3:19 PM ICANT has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 239 of 382 (498536)
02-11-2009 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by ICANT
02-11-2009 2:52 PM


Re: Of Gods and Angels
ICANT writes:
But the Greek gods were mortal they died.
The Greek gods were as immortal as your God and angels. According to the Wikipedia article on Greek Mythology, "The Greeks considered immortality as the distinctive characteristic of their gods." Which ones are you thinking of who died? Anyway, I don't suppose it would be beyond the power of a greater god to eliminate a lesser god, just as your all-powerful God could do the same to an angel.
But you're still taking the same flawed approach, trying to think up meaningful distinctions between Christian angels and Greek gods. The mythologies that grow around different religion's supernatural beings will of course be different. Perhaps ancient Greece even invented mythologies where some gods died while Christianity did not, but that is again a distinction without significance. The specifics of the various characters and stories in a religion's supernatural menagerie will of course vary widely, but the general characteristics will always remain the same, supernatural beings with great powers who interfere in the affairs of men.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 2:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 9:35 PM Percy has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 240 of 382 (498546)
02-11-2009 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ICANT
02-11-2009 2:44 PM


Re: God and god
Straggler writes:
What atttributes do the greek gods have that Satan does not such that the Greek gods are gods and Satan is not?
Be specific.
I don't believe either one is a god.
So according to you the ancient Greeks were atheists?
They did not believe in any gods. By your definition.
Ridiculous.
The Greek gods are mortal.
Where are you getting this nonsense from?
The Greek gods were believed to be immortal. Not mortal.
Straggler writes:
The devil can only do what God designed his tool to do. No?
I believe the devil is doing exactly what he was designed to do and is doing a perfect job by the results I see.
However you phrase it, however you conceive it if the devil has no free-will (as you claim), if the devil can only do that which God wills, if the devil is designed specifically to turn man against God - Then there is no conclusion possible other than the conclusion that God wills some men to be turned against God.
How can it possibly be otherwise?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 2:44 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 02-11-2009 6:52 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 243 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 9:18 PM Straggler has replied

  
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