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Author Topic:   Rationalising The Irrational - Hardcore Theists Apply Within
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 106 of 277 (498564)
02-11-2009 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by iano
02-11-2009 8:12 PM


Re: I Believe In.....Categorisation
Why do intelligent people believe in God?
I don't know.
That is the honest answer.
It genuinely baffles me. And I am quite prepared to acknowledge that there are those intellectually superior to me who do exactly that.
Statistically those better educated are less likely to believe.
Statistically those with higher IQs are less likely to believe.
But education can lead to belief and I personally hold little stock in the concept of IQ.
So, the question remains, why do so many intelligent people believe?
The answer remains - I don't know. But.........
I would add a few qualifying statements -
  • There are many (maybe more? - for what that is worth) obviously and extremely intelligent people who do not believe.
  • The most intelligent believers also seem to be the most "woolly". Their God is less judgemental, less literal and more deistic in nature. Rarely will you get the most intelligent theists declaring that science and religion are at odds with one another. In terms of this discussion most "intelligent" theists will be category 1 theists.
  • If this thread demonstrates anything it is that personal subjective experience outweighs all objective rationality. Those who believe themselves to have experienced God are incapable of objectively evaluating external evidence. Nobody could objectively conclude that the empirical evidence verifies God yet that is exactly what those theists blinded by faith claim. They also claim that this verification can only be understood if one has complete faith in God in the first place. They also fail to see the circular and contradictory nature of these assertions. I remain unconvinced that intelligence is the overriding factor in such flawed reasoning. A determination to be right seems more prevalent.......
    In short, I acknowledge the intelligence of the people you speak of but remain unconvinced that there is not something about faith which effectively allows the bypassing of such attribures.
    The answers garnered in this thread would seem to verify that faith can override rationality and I am not sure how we can effectively seperate intelligence from the ability to rationalise without delving into wild speculation.
    But I am open to suggestions?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 104 by iano, posted 02-11-2009 8:12 PM iano has not replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 107 of 277 (498566)
    02-11-2009 8:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 105 by John 10:10
    02-11-2009 8:37 PM


    Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
    I've explained why I believe in the Person whom God sent (John 6:28-29) many times to unbelievers such as you, and no proof that I can offer will make any difference whatsoever to you. You must find this proof for yourself as I have done. If and when you do, you will find your heart opening up to the truth and reality of who Jesus is and what He wants to do in your life. Until then ............................................
    I am not asking for proof. I am merely asking for your view on the basis of your faith.
    If you have made this so obvious to me/others in the past then what harm does it do to re-iterate this view here?
    So which are you?
    1) Category 1 Believer: Internal evidence is the essential basis of a belief in God.
    2) Category 2 Believer: External/physical evidence is the essential basis of a belief in God.
    3) Category 3 Believer: Elements of both internal evidence and external evidence are essential components in forming the basis of a belief in God but neither one nor the other is sufficient in itself.
    4) Category 4 Believer: Neither internal nor external evidence is required. Such a believer does not know why they believe in God. They just do.
    So which is it?
    Or if none of the above please detail, exactly and precisely, the basis of your belief in God.
    Many thanks

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 105 by John 10:10, posted 02-11-2009 8:37 PM John 10:10 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 108 by John 10:10, posted 02-12-2009 2:46 PM Straggler has replied

      
    John 10:10
    Member (Idle past 2995 days)
    Posts: 766
    From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
    Joined: 02-01-2006


    Message 108 of 277 (498643)
    02-12-2009 2:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 107 by Straggler
    02-11-2009 8:50 PM


    Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
    Category 5 Believer:
    Elements of both internal evidence and external evidence are essential components in forming the basis of a belief in God.
    One may have the latter, but it's the former that makes the journey into the kingdom of God a relationship and not a religion.
    But I'm sure you don't get this catagory either.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 107 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 8:50 PM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 109 by onifre, posted 02-12-2009 4:09 PM John 10:10 has replied
     Message 111 by Straggler, posted 02-13-2009 4:01 PM John 10:10 has replied

      
    onifre
    Member (Idle past 2951 days)
    Posts: 4854
    From: Dark Side of the Moon
    Joined: 02-20-2008


    Message 109 of 277 (498652)
    02-12-2009 4:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 108 by John 10:10
    02-12-2009 2:46 PM


    Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
    Category 5 Believer:
    Elements of both internal evidence and external evidence are essential components in forming the basis of a belief in God.
    I think you meant Category 3.
    One may have the latter, but it's the former that makes the journey into the kingdom of God a relationship and not a religion.
    This is exactly what Category 3 says, "neither is sufficient".
    So you are a Category 3 believer.
    - Oni

    "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
    "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 108 by John 10:10, posted 02-12-2009 2:46 PM John 10:10 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 110 by John 10:10, posted 02-12-2009 8:47 PM onifre has not replied

      
    John 10:10
    Member (Idle past 2995 days)
    Posts: 766
    From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
    Joined: 02-01-2006


    Message 110 of 277 (498698)
    02-12-2009 8:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 109 by onifre
    02-12-2009 4:09 PM


    Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
    Unbelievers don't get to tell believers in the Lord Jesus Christ what we believe. Believers get to tell unbelievers what we believe.
    I'm a Catagory 5 Believer:
    Elements of both internal evidence and external evidence are essential components in forming the basis of a belief in God.
    One may have the latter, but it's the former that makes the journey into the kingdom of God a relationship and not a religion.
    It seems you don't get this catagory either.
    Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 109 by onifre, posted 02-12-2009 4:09 PM onifre has not replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 111 of 277 (498759)
    02-13-2009 4:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 108 by John 10:10
    02-12-2009 2:46 PM


    Re: You are NOT smarter than a 5th grader
    Stragggler writes:
    1) Category 1 Believer: Internal evidence is the essential basis of a belief in God.
    2) Category 2 Believer: External/physical evidence is the essential basis of a belief in God.
    3) Category 3 Believer: Elements of both internal evidence and external evidence are essential components in forming the basis of a belief in God but neither one nor the other is sufficient in itself.
    4) Category 4 Believer: Neither internal nor external evidence is required. Such a believer does not know why they believe in God. They just do.
    So which is it?
    Or if none of the above please detail, exactly and precisely, the basis of your belief in God.
    John writes:
    Category 5 Believer:
    Elements of both internal evidence and external evidence are essential components in forming the basis of a belief in God.
    One may have the latter, but it's the former that makes the journey into the kingdom of God a relationship and not a religion.
    But I'm sure you don't get this catagory either.
    So you are basically a category 1 believer who is confused into thinking that physical evidence is also necessary?
    Or are you a category 3 believer who believes that internal evidence alone is insufficiant?
    Which is it because your "category 5" is just a confused mish mash of terminology.
    But I'm sure you don't get this catagory either
    There are two forms of evidence.
    Either single form of evidence can be essential to belief. Or elements of both, but neither individually, can be essential to belief.
    There are no other logical alternatives if belief is based on any sort of "evidence" at all.
    If you think there are then it just shows demonstrates your confused and irrational thought processes.
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 108 by John 10:10, posted 02-12-2009 2:46 PM John 10:10 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 112 by John 10:10, posted 02-19-2009 3:01 PM Straggler has replied

      
    John 10:10
    Member (Idle past 2995 days)
    Posts: 766
    From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
    Joined: 02-01-2006


    Message 112 of 277 (499641)
    02-19-2009 3:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 111 by Straggler
    02-13-2009 4:01 PM


    Category 5 Christian
    It's very interesting how unbelievers are so very sure they know what Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ believe, know and have experienced, and get very upset when Believers correct their pigeon holing attempts to tell Believers what we believe, know and have experienced.
    Harry Blamires has written this in his book "The Christian Mind,"
    "Christianity is supernaturally grounded, revealed not manufactured, imposed not chosen, authoritative, objective and irresistible ..... No human being invented the Christian faith. It was God's idea. If you think it a bad idea, you'd better blame God ..... He gave us this Christianity. We can accept it. We can reject it. But we can't tamper with it as though it were something put together by human hands or human brains."
    I'm sure you don't get this either.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 111 by Straggler, posted 02-13-2009 4:01 PM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 113 by Straggler, posted 02-19-2009 3:14 PM John 10:10 has not replied
     Message 114 by onifre, posted 02-19-2009 3:22 PM John 10:10 has not replied
     Message 115 by Stile, posted 02-19-2009 3:26 PM John 10:10 has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 113 of 277 (499644)
    02-19-2009 3:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by John 10:10
    02-19-2009 3:01 PM


    Re: Category 5 Christian
    It's very interesting how unbelievers are so very sure they know what Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ believe, know and have experienced, and get very upset when Believers correct their pigeon holing attempts to tell Believers what we believe, know and have experienced.
    We keep asking theists to explain what they believe and know and we keep getting circularity and contradiction in response.
    As a case in point:
    John Quotes Harry writes:
    "Christianity is supernaturally grounded, revealed not manufactured, imposed not chosen, authoritative, objective and irresistible ..... No human being invented the Christian faith. It was God's idea. If you think it a bad idea, you'd better blame God ..... He gave us this Christianity. We can accept it. We can reject it. But we can't tamper with it as though it were something put together by human hands or human brains."
    Exactly. If you take the existence of God and the veracity of the bible as unquestionable truth then the truth of the bible and the evidence for God is "obvious" and unquestionable.
    Completely circular.
    I'm sure you don't get this either.
    I am sure that you think you have made some sort of argument clinching point.
    However to anybody even vaguely objective you have quite evidently just demonstrated what everyone keeps telling you. Namely that your arguments are wholly circular and inherently devoid of any objectivity at all.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by John 10:10, posted 02-19-2009 3:01 PM John 10:10 has not replied

      
    onifre
    Member (Idle past 2951 days)
    Posts: 4854
    From: Dark Side of the Moon
    Joined: 02-20-2008


    Message 114 of 277 (499645)
    02-19-2009 3:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by John 10:10
    02-19-2009 3:01 PM


    Re: Category 5 Christian
    Harry Blamires has written this in his book "The Christian Mind,"
    Holy Shit! A quote from another book! Finally we get a broader scope of your opinion.(sarcasm intended)
    It's very interesting how unbelievers are so very sure they know what Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ believe
    Like you telling us what we should believe? Do you take pride in being a hypocrite?
    Straggler set up a categorical example for the processes which one uses to substantiate ones beliefs. You took part in it making yourself subject to having to pick one of the catagories, or you could have chosen not to take part. But, to be the arrogant fuck that you seem to be, you make up your own catagory which is EXACTLY like one of his catagories and then claim it's not. You are either too hard headed to admit you are wrong, or you are just an idiot arguing for the sake of arguing. Either way I think it is best to ignore you, however, I will not.
    Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

    "I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
    "I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by John 10:10, posted 02-19-2009 3:01 PM John 10:10 has not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 115 of 277 (499647)
    02-19-2009 3:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 112 by John 10:10
    02-19-2009 3:01 PM


    Harry... what were you thinking?
    John 10:10's quote of Harry Blamires writes:
    Christianity is supernaturally grounded, revealed not manufactured, imposed not chosen, authoritative, objective and irresistible ..... No human being invented the Christian faith. It was God's idea. If you think it a bad idea, you'd better blame God ..... He gave us this Christianity. We can accept it. We can reject it. But we can't tamper with it as though it were something put together by human hands or human brains.
    Supernaturally grounded - sure.
    Revealed and not manufactured - if you say so.
    Imposed, not chosen - I'll take your word for it.
    Authoritative - okay.
    Objective - absolutely not. It's kinda laughable if Harry actually thought he could slip this one in here. Seriously, this quote should be in the humour section.
    Irresistable - perhaps.
    Christianity most certainly is not objective. If it was objective, then it would be easy to show it to others and show them how it is different from imagination.
    Unless you weren't talking about Christian faith? Maybe about things like churches and pews and alters and candles? I certainly agree that those things are objective... but they're hardly supernaturally grounded, or "revealed" or "imposed" or authoritative or irresistable.
    The quote only makes sense if it's talking about the basis of Christianity's faith... and that is absolutely not objective by any means. Faith is the anti-objective.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by John 10:10, posted 02-19-2009 3:01 PM John 10:10 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2009 6:49 PM Stile has replied

      
    John 10:10
    Member (Idle past 2995 days)
    Posts: 766
    From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
    Joined: 02-01-2006


    (1)
    Message 116 of 277 (499988)
    02-21-2009 6:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 115 by Stile
    02-19-2009 3:26 PM


    Re: Harry... what were you thinking?
    Christianity most certainly is not objective. If it was objective, then it would be easy to show it to others and show them how it is different from imagination.
    Christianity is objective because it's centered in the Person of the Lord Jesus. Either He is exactly who He proclaimed Himself to be and He does precisely what He says He will do for His born again children, or He doesn't.
    For unbelievers who reject who Jesus is and what He says He will do for His children, how can you possibly know and understand what Christianity is all about?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by Stile, posted 02-19-2009 3:26 PM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 117 by Straggler, posted 02-21-2009 7:00 PM John 10:10 has replied
     Message 120 by Stile, posted 02-24-2009 1:04 PM John 10:10 has not replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 117 of 277 (499990)
    02-21-2009 7:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 116 by John 10:10
    02-21-2009 6:49 PM


    Re: Harry... what were you thinking?
    Christianity is objective because it's centered in the Person of the Lord Jesus.
    Either He is exactly who He proclaimed Himself to be and He does precisely what He says He will do for His born again children, or He doesn't.
    Or his born again children subjectively believe that he is doing precisely what they believe he said he would do.
    For unbelievers who reject who Jesus is and what He says He will do for His children, how can you possibly know and understand what Christianity is all about?
    That is the very definition of subjective belief.
    One can only be convinced of the evidence in order to believe if one is already convinced enough to believe.
    How many variations of the same circular nonsense can you come up with?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 116 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2009 6:49 PM John 10:10 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 118 by John 10:10, posted 02-24-2009 12:48 PM Straggler has replied

      
    John 10:10
    Member (Idle past 2995 days)
    Posts: 766
    From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
    Joined: 02-01-2006


    Message 118 of 277 (500291)
    02-24-2009 12:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 117 by Straggler
    02-21-2009 7:00 PM


    Re: Harry... what were you thinking?
    How many variations of the same circular nonsense can you come up with?
    Since you are always on the outside trying to look into the Christian faith of those who have entered into the things of Jesus, everything that does not fit into your reasoning box is circular nonsense to you.
    Either Jesus is exactly who He proclaimed Himself to be and He does precisely what He says He will do for His born again children, or He doesn't.
    How can one who is not one of Jesus' children possibly know what Jesus does for those who are His children?
    It's as simple and as difficult as that.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 117 by Straggler, posted 02-21-2009 7:00 PM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by Straggler, posted 02-24-2009 1:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 119 of 277 (500295)
    02-24-2009 1:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 118 by John 10:10
    02-24-2009 12:48 PM


    Round and Round and Round We Go
    Straggler writes:
    How many variations of the same circular nonsense can you come up with?
    Since you are always on the outside trying to look into the Christian faith of those who have entered into the things of Jesus, everything that does not fit into your reasoning box is circular nonsense to you.
    By the "inside" you presumably mean those who believe. So according to you if I first believe in Jesus then I will see the reasons to believe in Jesus and thus I will believe in Jesus.
    I am familiar enough with your contributions to predict that the inherent circularity of this will be lost on you.
    How can one who is not one of Jesus' children possibly know what Jesus does for those who are His children?
    And yet again........... Round and around we go.
    If I believe I will know why to believe and thus I will believe.
    Could you be any more circular if you tried?
    Edited by Straggler, : I am attributing Johns quotes to myself!!! AaaaRRRggg!!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 118 by John 10:10, posted 02-24-2009 12:48 PM John 10:10 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by John 10:10, posted 02-27-2009 7:28 PM Straggler has replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 120 of 277 (500296)
    02-24-2009 1:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 116 by John 10:10
    02-21-2009 6:49 PM


    Re: Harry... what were you thinking?
    John 10:10 writes:
    Christianity is objective because it's centered in the Person of the Lord Jesus.
    But being "centered in the Person of the Lord Jesus" is not what makes anything objective.
    Things are objectively true if you're able to show them to be true independent of yourself or any others.
    Christinaity may very well be great, grand, the-most-awesomest-thing-ever, and "centered in the Person of the Lord Jesus", but if you cannot show that to be true independent of yourself or others... then it most certainly is not objective.
    Either He is exactly who He proclaimed Himself to be and He does precisely what He says He will do for His born again children, or He doesn't.
    This is correct. Christianity is either true, or it is false. But this doesn't say anything about it being objective.
    Christianity is objectively true, or it isn't. Since you have not (yet?) shown Christianity to be true independent of yourself or others, this is false. Christianity is not objectively true. It still may be theoretically, possibly true. But it's certainly not objective unless you can show it to be so independent of yourself and others.
    For unbelievers who reject who Jesus is and what He says He will do for His children, how can you possibly know and understand what Christianity is all about?
    I never claimed to know anything about Christianity. Neither do I claim to reject who Jesus is or what He says He will do for His children. I only claim to know about objective-ness, and if things are objective or not. This has nothing to do with knowing anything about Christianity.
    Example:
    I also don't claim to know anything about black-holes. But, I know they're objectively true, because Mr. Hawking can show them to be true independent of himself and others, and he has done so.
    You cannot do so, or at least have not yet done so, for Christianity. Until you do, Christianity will not be objective.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 116 by John 10:10, posted 02-21-2009 6:49 PM John 10:10 has not replied

      
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