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Author Topic:   Reproduction before Life
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2718 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 1 of 11 (501069)
03-04-2009 12:33 AM


In Evolution would have given us infrared vision, Buzsaw talked about reproduction in what he calls the "Post-Abiogenesis" era. Depending on when abiogenesis is considered to have been completed, one could argue that this actually represents the "Pre-Abiogenesis" era, but that's not the point.
Essentially, Buzsaw argues that, after the genesis of proto-cells, but before the genesis of true cells, there was a period of uncertain reproductive capacity for what would soon become life.
I think he deserves a chance to air his doubts about the feasibility of this process on a thread better suited to his argument.
My own take on the issue is that there would, indeed, be a period during which the replication cycles and processes of the different molecules within the proto-cell would not be coordinated centrally. Different molecules within the same proto-cell would have been perpetuated by different environmental processes, and the advantages given by the few "proto-genes" would be random and poorly regulated, at least at first.
In short, this era would be a terrible, confusing mess. But, I don't see why this is a problem for abiogenesis or evolution. Anyone who studies community ecology, phylogenetics or, really, any other area of life science, knows that life and its processes are still a terrible, confusing mess today.
True, the processes would likely have some differences when compared with today's processes, but the overall picture isn't that much different. I think the major issue is that Buzsaw, like most creationists, does not realize that confusing messes are the norm in biology.
I am interested primarily in why Buzsaw thinks this period of time is problematic, and why he thinks the gradual synchronization of multiple, independent components' replication cycles is beyond the reach of random mutation plus natural selection.

-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus
Darwin loves you.

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 11:12 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2718 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 3 of 11 (501269)
03-05-2009 1:42 PM


Bump: Buzsaw
Buzz?
Do you want to debate this issue?

-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus
Darwin loves you.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 03-05-2009 2:53 PM Blue Jay has not replied
 Message 5 by shalamabobbi, posted 03-05-2009 3:20 PM Blue Jay has not replied
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 7:14 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2718 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 11 of 11 (501442)
03-06-2009 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
03-05-2009 11:12 PM


Re: Confused Mess, Yes
Hi, Buzsaw.
Buzsaw writes:
Imo, most potential starters would be dropouts soon in the process.
You have my full agreement in this.
Except, looking back over the fossil record, it's pretty clear that most organisms of any kind have been evolutionary dropouts along the way. I would suggest that the life we have today represents an infinitesimally small fraction of all the life that has existed.
Looking at evolutionary natural history as a bush, we would see the bush as mostly dead, with only a few tiny, living shoots with leaves sticking out in random, lopsided places.
To me, this is perfectly consistent with, and even to be expected from, evolution by natural selection. I can't imagine why anyone would propose that this wasn't the case in the very early stages of life, as well.
-----
Buzsaw writes:
It appears that all it would take in all of this would be one or two misses or absentees in any given step of the process and the whole life process fails.
All it would have taken in my family history was my Swedish great-great-great-grandfather having not married a Danish woman, and my family never would have existed.
All it would have taken in human history was Christopher Columbus's ship having been sunk, and the Native Americans may never have been pushed out of their lands.
All it would have taken in evolutionary history was one little mammal having been stomped flat by a dinosaur, and we wouldn't be here today.
All history is just a long string of improbable events. But, even if history had been completely changed by the non-occurrence of some improbable event, the outcome would still have been extremely improbable.
So, improbability simply doesn't cut it.

-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 11:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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