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Author Topic:   The nature of "space"
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 5 of 15 (502094)
03-09-2009 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jester4kicks
03-09-2009 12:01 PM


Is there "space" outside of the known universe?
Possibly - depends what you mean by "the known universe"
if you were to journey to the outermost edge of the known universe... the point where all matter in the universe had not expanded past yet
No such place - your whole starting assumption is wrong, and your creationist friend is correct: matter is not expanding into space; space is simply expanding between matter, as predicted by General Relativity.
My point is that space itself is nothing but the void...
No, space is as real as the atoms that make up your hand.
My point is that space itself is nothing but the void... ...It is not tangible
Neither are atoms, electrons, photons, etc. Tangibility is a purely macroscopic phenomenon involving near-infinite electromagnetic interactions between near-infinite numbers of photons and electrons associated with the atoms of the toucher and the touchee. Same with visibility...
I've never understood that whole "balloon" analogy with everything sitting on the surface of the balloon. Instead, I've always thought of the universe more like a "cloud" containing all matter in the known universe that is constantly expanding in all directions outward.
The "balloon" analogy was constructed to precisely dispell the erroneous "cloud" analogy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jester4kicks, posted 03-09-2009 12:01 PM Jester4kicks has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jester4kicks, posted 03-09-2009 3:40 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 9 of 15 (502103)
03-09-2009 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jester4kicks
03-09-2009 3:40 PM


space is not "created", but rather that the existing space expands.
True - that is like claiming that temperature is "created" in a kettle, or speed is "created" when a ball rolls down a hill. Or better still, that longitude is "created" as you journey south from the North Pole. The distance between any two objects is just a number, and cosmological expansion is simply that number getting larger for all possible pairs of cosmologically sized objects.
but rather that space was the absence of anything, including subatomic particles.
"Empty" space is seething with subatomic particles. But that's beside the point. Take three points in space: A, B, and C. Something we normally call "real" might be the number of photons at each point - say P(A), P(B), P(C). These numbers form a "field" when taken over all points. What we call space is formed by the distance between the points D(A,B), D(B,C) and D(C,A). These numbers also form a "field" when taken over all points. There is nothing more "real" about the photon field than the distance field, they both manifest in our experience, just in different ways.
If your hypothetical jar only had the void (and vacuum) of space "in" it... how would you determine that? How would you identify it as such?
You would mesaure the distance between pairs of points and these would reveal the mass distribution in the jar, possibly a zero distribution of mass. But the existence of the distances would be the "space".
Does this somehow relate to my comment in the previous response about everything in the universe being "woven" together?
The Universe is woven together out of the different fields. That is the sum total of existence as far as we can tell - just interwoven fields.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jester4kicks, posted 03-09-2009 3:40 PM Jester4kicks has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Jester4kicks, posted 03-09-2009 5:09 PM cavediver has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3665 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 15 of 15 (502304)
03-10-2009 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taq
03-10-2009 6:14 PM


The problem here is that over large enough distances the accumulated expansion of the universe is greater than the speed of light.
This isn't actually that relevant. If we were in a closed Friedmann Roberston Walker universe, we could still have the same "superluminal" expansion (for sufficiently large universes), but what would prevent the circumnavigation is the big crunch would occur before the trip could be completed.
Our situation is muddied by the action of the "dark energy" field(s) - in the current phase, the expansion is accelerating, so there is no hope of a circumnavigation. But we don't know the dynamic evolution of the dark energy, and it is possible it could alter such that a circumnavigation is possible.
Of course, all of this presupposes a closed finite Universe. We do not yet know if this is the case. The Universe could well be open and infinite (It could also be open and compactified, but that is a different story...)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taq, posted 03-10-2009 6:14 PM Taq has not replied

  
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