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Author Topic:   ERV's: Evidence of Common Ancestory
pcver
Junior Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 22
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 03-30-2009


Message 61 of 166 (504514)
03-30-2009 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by shalamabobbi
03-13-2009 4:59 PM


ERVs...Errr...I am no David
Errr... I am actually quite new to ERVs.
I hear you evolutionists loud and clear - ERVs prove common ancestry between apes and human.
Errr... that proves the Evolution Theory, right?
But how does that prove evolution to be true? Any suggestion how did apes actually descended to be human?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by shalamabobbi, posted 03-13-2009 4:59 PM shalamabobbi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by bluescat48, posted 03-30-2009 8:08 AM pcver has not replied
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-30-2009 10:38 AM pcver has not replied
 Message 64 by Huntard, posted 03-30-2009 12:04 PM pcver has not replied
 Message 65 by shalamabobbi, posted 03-30-2009 2:41 PM pcver has not replied
 Message 66 by Coragyps, posted 03-30-2009 2:56 PM pcver has replied
 Message 72 by Taq, posted 03-31-2009 10:47 AM pcver has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 62 of 166 (504518)
03-30-2009 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by pcver
03-30-2009 7:16 AM


Re: ERVs...Errr...I am no David
But how does that prove evolution to be true? Any suggestion how did apes actually descended to be human?
Apes didn't descend, humans are apes.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 63 of 166 (504527)
03-30-2009 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by pcver
03-30-2009 7:16 AM


Odd ...
Errr... I am actually quite new to ERVs.
I hear you evolutionists loud and clear - ERVs prove common ancestry between apes and human.
Errr... that proves the Evolution Theory, right?
But how does that prove evolution to be true? Any suggestion how did apes actually descended to be human?
Listening to creationists trying to talk about science is like listening to someone trying to talk about sport and saying "The goalkeeper did an end-run around the third baseman, so the referee awarded a slam dunk".
The theory of evolution is the explanation of how evolution happened.
And the ERVs and the other evidence are the proof that evolution occured.

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 Message 61 by pcver, posted 03-30-2009 7:16 AM pcver has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 64 of 166 (504531)
03-30-2009 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by pcver
03-30-2009 7:16 AM


Re: ERVs...Errr...I am no David
pcver writes:
Errr... that proves the Evolution Theory, right?
Are you saying evolution is just a theory with this remark? Because then you don't know what a scientific theory is. Let me just say this on the subject, in science gravity is a theory too.

I hunt for the truth

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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 65 of 166 (504538)
03-30-2009 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by pcver
03-30-2009 7:16 AM


Re: ERVs...Errr...I am no David
Hi pcver,
If you are no David, then this Philistine will kill you..
pcver writes:
But how does that prove evolution to be true? Any suggestion how did apes actually descended to be human?
Did you ever watch the original movie, planet of the apes? When Charlton Heston asks Dr. Zeus whether apes would make a human doll that talks and says mama, there was proof of evolution even though the details were not known of how it took place.
Likewise ERVs arise randomly in the genome. How can a random pattern be the same for two distinct created types?
quote:
Endogenous retroviral insertions - These are inactivated viral genes that were inserted by ancient retroviruses. In order for a retrovirus to be inherited in all members of a species many highly improbable events must happen. The virus must insert into a gamete cell, it must mutate so it is inactive, that gamete cell must be used to make an embryo that lives to reproduce and whose genome fixates into the population. This is a very rare event, and ERVs are usually species specific and insert themselves nearly randomly into the genome of the host. The fact that we share ERVs with simians is proof we share a common genome. Even more than that, phylogenetic trees can be constructed based on the pattern of ERVS, humans share more ERVs with chimps than either share with gorillas. This is extremely strong evidence for common descent.
reference
What are the odds that these patterns could be the same in unrelated species completely by chance? Creationists like to use the odds argument where it does not apply. Here, though, it does correctly apply.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 66 of 166 (504539)
03-30-2009 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by pcver
03-30-2009 7:16 AM


Re: ERVs...Errr...I am no David
Hello, pcver, and welcome to EvC! I hope you enjoy it here!
Any suggestion how did apes actually descended to be human?
There are quite a few, actually, but we need a new thread to discuss them - this forum tries to keep topics pretty closely focussed on their original topics. Suffice it to say here that our line had some mutations that led to things like neoteny, big brains, and sparse hair that our chimpanzee cousins didn't get.
And no, the details aren't all known here in 2009. We just learned how to sequence genomes in the last few years....

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 Message 61 by pcver, posted 03-30-2009 7:16 AM pcver has replied

Replies to this message:
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pcver
Junior Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 22
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 03-30-2009


Message 67 of 166 (504562)
03-31-2009 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Coragyps
03-30-2009 2:56 PM


Poking fun at Goliath
I like bluescat48's comment best: Apes didn't descend, humans are apes.
Dr Adequate said: "And the ERVs and the other evidence are the proof that evolution occured."
Err...I kind of disagree. ERVs might be evidence that evolution had occurred, but that does not tell you HOW evolution had occurred. I am thinking along the line that God might have used the same 'mold' to create both apes and human. I thought it'd be a silly God to have created human from scratch. Why not borrow a bit of this and a bit of that from apes? Just my wild guess. But if true, won't this be an explanation why apes and human share many common ERVs? If true, then ERVs is not even a proof that evolution had occurred.
Huntard: "Are you saying evolution is just a theory with this remark?"
Actually I have always thought that evolution theory should more rightly be "The Hypothesis of Evolution".
shalamabobbi: "If you are no David, then this Philistine will kill you.."
I see attacks from so many sides. I'm almost scared to death
Coragyps, Thank you for the kind words. I will try sticking with ERVs until I'm slain
I need to ask you all some questions, because I can't find an answer.
(1) Do all human have exactly the same ERVs?
(2) Do all apes have exactly the same ERVs, among the same species?
(3) The probability of occurrence of an ERV is very low. What is the mean period between two ERVs in the same apes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Coragyps, posted 03-30-2009 2:56 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by shalamabobbi, posted 03-31-2009 3:27 AM pcver has replied
 Message 69 by DrJones*, posted 03-31-2009 3:54 AM pcver has not replied
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-31-2009 2:02 PM pcver has not replied

  
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 68 of 166 (504564)
03-31-2009 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by pcver
03-31-2009 2:17 AM


Re: Poking fun at Goliath
pcver writes:
(1) Do all human have exactly the same ERVs?
(2) Do all apes have exactly the same ERVs, among the same species?
No. When the human chromosome was sequenced, and a chimpanzee chromosome was sequenced we got incredibly lucky and picked two individuals that were more related to each other than to the rest of their respective species..
quote:
once a retrovirus has inserted into the germ-line DNA of a given organism, it will be inherited by all descendents of that organism.
ref
It's the result of genetics. You get your DNA from mum and daddy. That's how it works. Storks don't really exist.
(3) The probability of occurrence of an ERV is very low. What is the mean period between two ERVs in the same apes?
Longer than 6,000 years can account for their inclusion into the genome..
quote:
In humans, endogenous retroviruses occupy about 1% of the genome, in total constituting ~30,000 different retroviruses embedded in each person's genomic DNA (Sverdlov 2000).
ref
So 30,000 divided by 6,000 years = 5 ERVs per year entering the human genome for creationists! Yeah, that's possible..
Please come poke some more fun at age correlations of an old earth. We need the entertainment. Science sometimes can be dull.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by pcver, posted 03-31-2009 2:17 AM pcver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by pcver, posted 03-31-2009 8:40 AM shalamabobbi has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 69 of 166 (504567)
03-31-2009 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by pcver
03-31-2009 2:17 AM


Re: Poking fun at Goliath
I thought it'd be a silly God to have created human from scratch. Why not borrow a bit of this and a bit of that from apes?
So you're saying that your god is too limited to come up with compeletly unique designs for every species he created?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

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pcver
Junior Member (Idle past 5101 days)
Posts: 22
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 03-30-2009


Message 70 of 166 (504576)
03-31-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by shalamabobbi
03-31-2009 3:27 AM


Re: Poking fun at Goliath
Shalamabobbi,
Errr...Was that tongue in cheek? You really mean YES, don't you? Yes, among apes & human, they all share exactly the same ERVs.
Or, perhaps it is only safer to say NO?
Loudmouth started this thread with Message#1. Among other things, he wrote: "...What results is an organism with a partial viral sequence, called an endogenous retrovirus (ERV), present in every cell of their body including half of their eggs or sperm..."
That definitely suggests there is a chance that some human eggs/sperms are even without ERVs. So we can expect that human do not all share the same ERVs. Theoretically, some human may even be without ERVs. Therefore according to Loudmouth: No, human do not all have exactly the same ERVs. Some have more ERVs but some have less. Was Loudmouth correct in making that statement?
I also like your suggestion about 5 ERVs per year entering the human genome. It'd be a lot of fun, but I don't feel like talking about old versus young Earth right now.
DrJones said: So you're saying that your god is too limited to come up with compeletly unique designs for every species he created?
No, you said that. I did not. If you do not think species are uniquely designed, why would you regarded them as different species in the first place?
I'd still would like to seek a definitive answer to each of my doubts:
(1) Do all human have exactly the same ERVs?
(2) Do all apes have exactly the same ERVs, among the same species?
(3) The probability of occurrence of an ERV is very low. What is the mean period between two ERVs in the same apes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by shalamabobbi, posted 03-31-2009 3:27 AM shalamabobbi has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Taq, posted 03-31-2009 10:37 AM pcver has replied
 Message 73 by Wounded King, posted 03-31-2009 11:04 AM pcver has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 71 of 166 (504586)
03-31-2009 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by pcver
03-31-2009 8:40 AM


Re: Poking fun at Goliath
Loudmouth started this thread with Message#1. Among other things, he wrote: "...What results is an organism with a partial viral sequence, called an endogenous retrovirus (ERV), present in every cell of their body including half of their eggs or sperm..."
That definitely suggests there is a chance that some human eggs/sperms are even without ERVs.
There are hundreds of thousands of ERV's in the human genome. Only a handful are not fixed in the population. What Loudmouth was saying was that when the retroviral insertion FIRST happens it will be passed on like any other heterozygous allele. It's somewhat like blood type. If one of your parents has a blood type AB then half of their gametes will carry the A allele and the other half will carry the B allele. For ERV's that have not become homozygous in the population the two alleles are the ERV and the empty insertion site.
No, human do not all have exactly the same ERVs. Some have more ERVs but some have less. Was Loudmouth correct in making that statement?
Like I said above, only a handful out of the hundreds of thousands of ERV's are not fixed in the population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by pcver, posted 03-31-2009 8:40 AM pcver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by pcver, posted 04-01-2009 7:51 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 72 of 166 (504589)
03-31-2009 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by pcver
03-30-2009 7:16 AM


Re: ERVs...Errr...I am no David
I hear you evolutionists loud and clear - ERVs prove common ancestry between apes and human.
Errr... that proves the Evolution Theory, right?
Theories are never proven. Theories can only be tested. As new evidence comes to light, like ERV's, the theory is tested once again.
As for ERV's, the theory of evolution predicts three things. First, ERV's that are shared in the same genomic position must produce the same nested hierarchy that is based on morphology. With very, very few exceptions, this is true. Secondly, the theory of evolution predicts that the divergence of the DNA sequence of the ERV should match the evolutionary distance established by the nested hierarchy. For example, an ERV shared by orangutans, humans, and chimps should vary more than an ERV shared by just humans and chimps. The theory passes this test as well. Thirdly, when an ERV inserts the LTR's (Long Tandem Repeats) that flank the retroviral DNA are exactly the same DNA sequence. After insertion the LTR's will diverge due to the accumulation of mutations. Therefore, the longer that an ERV has been in a lineage the more divergence one should see between the LTR's of the same ERV. This time period established by the LTR's should match the other two pieces of evidence, and it does.
IOW, the pattern AND sequence divergence of ERV's is exactly what we should see if evolution is true. With creationism/ID we wouldn't even predict that any two species would share the same codon usage, much less orthologous ERV's. That is the problem here, creationism/ID is incapable of predicting what types of patterns we should see between species which makes the "common designer, common design" claims a bit hollow.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 73 of 166 (504594)
03-31-2009 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by pcver
03-31-2009 8:40 AM


Deeper into ERVs
Theoretically, some human may even be without ERVs.
I don't see how this could be possible, except to the extent that theoretically some humans could have a totally different genetic composition to any other human that ever lived. This is the same order of theoretical possibility as Shalamabobi's sarcastic suggestion that the human and chimp genome projects just happened to sequence two individual organisms more similar to each other than either was to the rest of their own species.
Therefore according to Loudmouth: No, human do not all have exactly the same ERVs. Some have more ERVs but some have less. Was Loudmouth correct in making that statement?
Yes, but there are also ERV insertions that are conserved in all the human genomes sequenced so far, in all the chimp genomes sequenced so far and in all the chimp and human genomes sequenced so far. It is this last set of ERV insertions that provide evidence for common ancestry of chimps and humans.
(1) Do all human have exactly the same ERVs?
No.
(2) Do all apes have exactly the same ERVs, among the same species?
No.
(3) The probability of occurrence of an ERV is very low. What is the mean period between two ERVs in the same apes?
I'm, not sure I understand exactly what you mean by 'the mean period between two ERVs in the same apes', could you explain in simpler terms? I'm assuming you mean what is the frequency of a specific ERV sequence insertion at a specific loci in a particular ape species, is that right?
If you do mean insertion of the exact same sequence at the exact same genetic locus then it is uncommon enough that I don't think there is any way to judge that period. We would have to observe a number of instances of independent insertion to be able to get a value like this. There is some evidence that viral insertion sites are non-random in some cases but nothing that would suggest the sort of specificity required for frequent insertions at a common genetic locus.
TTFN,
WK

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 74 of 166 (504609)
03-31-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by pcver
03-31-2009 2:17 AM


Omphalos
Dr Adequate said: "And the ERVs and the other evidence are the proof that evolution occured."
Err...I kind of disagree. ERVs might be evidence that evolution had occurred
Er ... that wouldn't be disagreement.
but that does not tell you HOW evolution had occurred.
No, the theory of evolution does that.
Or the fossil record does that, depending on exactly what you mean by "how" in this context.
I am thinking along the line that God might have used the same 'mold' to create both apes and human. I thought it'd be a silly God to have created human from scratch. Why not borrow a bit of this and a bit of that from apes? Just my wild guess. But if true, won't this be an explanation why apes and human share many common ERVs? If true, then ERVs is not even a proof that evolution had occurred.
But this is kind of approaching the old "Omphalos" argument --- God might have made everything to look like the Earth was old, species evolved, the Universe began with a Big Bang, and so forth; as one creationist put it talking about the lack of evidence for the flood:
The Fllod is not a myth, scientific evidence or not. God could have erased all the scientific evidence if He wanted to, because He is God!
Well, so he could. But why on Earth would he, unless his intention is to fool scientists?
Your argument is perhaps slightly more sophisticated, but not much. You try to suggest a reason why God should have produced this seemingly evolutionary pattern, but the reason (in the light of our knowledge of ERVs) seems to be that God made poor design decisions apparently out of sheer laziness. Also, it would hardly explain why there are any ERVs in any eukaryote genome in the first place --- divine carelessness?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 75 of 166 (504628)
03-31-2009 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Dr Adequate
03-31-2009 2:02 PM


Re: Omphalos
You try to suggest a reason why God should have produced this seemingly evolutionary pattern, but the reason (in the light of our knowledge of ERVs) seems to be that God made poor design decisions apparently out of sheer laziness.
I would say that it is the opposite of laziness. It takes effort to purposefully change the sequences of the ERV's so that they produce the same phylogeny as the location of the ERV's. God would have to go to each ERV and change the LTR sequences so that the insertion time derived from the LTR divergence matches the insertion time derived from the loci. God would also have to make sure that the same ERV between species has enough changes so that they too produce the same insertion time derived from the other two methods. This takes some effort.
What it argues for is Loki, a god who purposefully tricks his creations.

This message is a reply to:
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