Are we prisoners of sin

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Simply put, all creation are prisoners of sin because we are born from Adam & Eve. We've inherited it. The proof of sin is that we all die. Gentiles, jews, christians, muslims etc ALL die. That means we have all inherited that trait from Adam.

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But that's what you haven't shown. That is Paul's teaching. Jesus did not teach that we inherited sin from A&E or that death is proof of sin. Death is not proof of sin. Death is part of the circle of life, period. You who doesn't accept that the trees in the A&E story impart knowledge and life. According to that foundational myth A&E already had the capability of dying before "the fall". (They were thrown out of the garden so they couldn't eat from the tree of life.) So sin has nothing to do with being able to die in that story. Paul was trying to create a need and he was talking with Gentiles who knew very little if anything of the OT. Show me that Jesus taught what you're saying.

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The only means of salvation from the condition of death, is for sin to be done away with. God has made this possible thru the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

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Anyone who wants to benefit from that salvation MUST put their faith in Jesus Christ and must follow him. This goes for Gentiles too...they must submit to Christian law and the teaching of Christs Apostles. Gods laws and mans are quite different and just because a gentile follows the laws of their land does not mean that they have a righteous standing with God. They must follow Gods laws in order to obtain that. Remember that it is 'Faith' in God that counts a person as righteous, not works of any law.

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To show faith in God, one must adopt HIS laws....or better put, live as he directs.

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See you contradict again. The only means of resurrection for the dead is for sin to be done away with. But people still sin. Remember, that's why they keep saying the Lord's prayer according to either you or cedre, I don't remember. Again sin is not a thing that can be expelled. After Jesus died people still sinned. Plus sin is breaking God's law, which you said has nothing to do with having a spot in the resurrection. Make up your mind. You said it is a gift. So behavior is irrelevant. Is it an unconditional gift or not?Apparently not since you also say that to show faith one must adopt God's laws or Christian laws, you still haven't been able to clearly show God's laws or Christian laws that a believer is held accountable to.What I'm reading is that following God's law does not make one righteous or get one on the list for resurrection, only faith in Jesus Christ can get one on the list. BUT, to show faith in God, one must adopt his laws or live as he directs. So we still have to follow "the law" even though it doesn't get us a spot, but yet it does. See the contradiction? Again, make up your mind.I've already shown you several times in the OT that we are counted righteous for following God's law and the law of the land. You only have Paul saying otherwise. Show me that Jesus taught this.

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If you read the bible you will see plenty of expamples where the death penalty was enforced. Jesus stopped a group of Jews from stoning a woman in his day, so the practice was alive and well in 33CE. Does your source state what era he is talking about?

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Then where does that leave John 18:3? It's really irrelevant today since there are no death penalties in the US for crimes other than extreme murder that I know of. We in the US don't fear being stoned. That was an ancient civilization. Physical death is not a threat for lying or adultery.

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the Apostles of Christ clearly explained how Jesus was this one. This also explains why the Mosaic law MUST come to an end. Once the Prophet arrived the people would have to listen to him... Moses was not longer the means to reconciliation with God. Reconciliation was now to be thru the Seed that was promised by God.

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But it didn't come to an end. The Jews still follow the Mosaic laws and the Oral laws.So what are God's Christian Laws that when followed allow one to show faith in God and win a spot in the resurrection?
Do you have that list to share yet?Show me that Jesus supports what Paul taught the Gentiles.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I try to see past denominations and try to look at the individual's heart, to be sure in every denomination there are those faithful few who cleave to the truth of God's word and desist from compromising and substituting god's truth with man made ideas.But the bible gives us a way to determine true followers of god with passages like this ones: Now I can tell you that I have seen all of the above take place in my church and in my particular denomination, whether or not you believe me is up to you. You can try to come up with all sorts of explanations and reasons that challenge what I have just said, but frankly I am not bothered because I know what I have seen with my own two eyes, I have seen aids cured, tumors, neoplasms what have you reduced to bare nothing. I have seen the crippled walk and the blind receive sight, I have seen a woman slither on her belly imitating a serpent because she was possessed. Sound fantastic? but even more fantastic is that it's actually true.And denominational barriers are not as significant as you might think. churches don't disagree on such major issues as Christs divinity and so on. The divisions that exist mainly are based on petite things like baptism, gifts of the Spirit mainly the speaking of tongues and a few more other things that aren't really matters of life and death. But most churches in fact the greatest number of churches agree on the essential doctrines. Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

I still hold to this view, the killings or bloodbaths that occurred followed direct orders from heaven that were given to a particular group of people for that given instant in time, and were therefore never meant to transcend those special occasions, in fact in his ten commandments God disapproves of killing, so unless God instructs it killing should be off-limits to any human being. The bible doesn’t teach independently that we should kill others. But it encourages us to preserve life until death is required, like in the case of capital punishment, protecting innocent lives, self defense and the like. I have already answered this above. The bible doesn’t teach independently that we should recklessly be killing people; it commands us to treat life as if it were priceless and to preserve life. When bloodbaths did occur this was God’s wrath coming upon sinful nations and tribes. So if one should read the bible carefully and understand it as he/she should then a bloodbath will never suggest itself. People sometimes have killed in the name of God but this is because they misread the bible, and hence it doesn’t say anything on what the bible teaches. Yes I will claim exactly that. What you need to do is give me passages directly from the bible encouraging killing or bloodbaths and these passages should be intended for Christian application. The crusaders were driven by their own greed I will say maybe they became overzealous and in that state of zeal carried out stupid things. But the fact is they were not influenced by the teachings of the bible if well understood and applied. God created mankind and he has power over their lives, he gives life and he can take it away at will if he sees the need to do so. Whether you agree with this or not God still has the final word concerning everything. Now about the children, what sins have they committed? You ask. Well all flesh is sinful due to Adam’s original sin and the wages of sin is death.Again owning infinite knowledge God can see the end from the start, he knows why he embarks on certain courses of action and frowns upon others, He is all-knowing, and I’m afraid with your finite human knowledge that you have, you won’t always grasp all His actions. Don’t rush to conclusions my dear, this kind of enforcing of the law was was handed down to the Israelites its application began and ended with the Israelites. This is God’s law, and the penalty of breaking it was often death without mercy. Christians however have been taught grace and what to means to love their enemy. We are not free from the law in the sense that we shouldn’t live by it anymore, we should live by it but by accepting God’s gift of eternal life we have escaped death and hell, which is the penalty for breaking God’s law. The bible does encourage good works even in the Old Testament so why not. For some reason you probably think that punishing sinners is not a good work, well, why not? Sinners are lawbreakers in God’s eyes, and punishing lawbreakers is a good thing, it is a noble act. Imagine if no lawbreaker was ever corrected for his lawless act, what world would we have been living in, simply recognizing what is moral is not enough we need to be able to protect morality and punish immorality. So God is doing a good thing when he punishes lawbreakers for their lawlessness.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Why do you insist on lying about the Bible?

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The bible doesn’t teach independently that we should kill others.

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Need I go on? The Bible is a litany of cruelty and violence. There are many examples where it encourages violence. You must be well aware of this. Either that, or you have never bothered to read your own holy book, a surprisingly common occurrence amongst Christians in my experience.

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But it encourages us to preserve life until death is required, like in the case of capital punishment, protecting innocent lives, self defense and the like.

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Please explain how failure to observe the Sabbath is deserving of execution.

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When bloodbaths did occur this was God’s wrath coming upon sinful nations and tribes. So if one should read the bible carefully and understand it as he/she should then a bloodbath will never suggest itself. People sometimes have killed in the name of God but this is because they misread the bible, and hence it doesn’t say anything on what the bible teaches.

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A classic attempt to have one's cake and eat it. When people do something good in the name of the Bible, the Bible takes the credit. When people do something evil in the name of the Bible, they have misunderstood it. This despite the fact that the text clearly calls for the murder of heathens and such. Then you have lost your tiny mind.I consider the above statement to be such a retreat into absurdity that it is sufficient to refute your entire argument. Claim that the crusaders were influenced by greed by all means, no-one here is going to disagree. But to claim that Christianity played absolutely no part in their motivations? Pathetic.The First Crusade was an attempt to claim the "Holy Land". If not for Christianity, this rather unpromising terrain would never have been a bone of contention. Your eagerness to rewrite history is disgraceful.

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God created mankind and he has power over their lives, he gives life and he can take it away at will if he sees the need to do so.

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And here we have the twisted heart of your sick philosophy. We are not prisoners of sin, we are prisoners of your nasty little tyrant god. The morality of such conduct escapes me. To any neutral observer, this would be described as despotism.

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Whether you agree with this or not God still has the final word concerning everything.

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Classic "might makes right" thinking, if it can be described as thinking at all.

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Now about the children, what sins have they committed? You ask. Well all flesh is sinful due to Adam’s original sin and the wages of sin is death.

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Or to put it another way, God has deliberately created humankind to be sinful, then when they inevitably sin, he throws a childish temper tantrum and engages in an eternal collective punishment, complete with arbitrary penalties to be visited upon generation after generation of innocents.You have completely failed to point to any immoral act committed by any child, so I can only conclude that their categorisation as "sinful" is wholly arbitrary and ethically flawed. That leaves your god a child abusing monster.

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Again owning infinite knowledge God can see the end from the start, he knows why he embarks on certain courses of action and frowns upon others, He is all-knowing, and I’m afraid with your finite human knowledge that you have, you won’t always grasp all His actions.

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Hooray! The old God-moves-in-mysterious-ways defence. Pathetic. To resort to this shoddy argument is an admission of intellectual poverty. You have no argument and so you must resort to hand-waving.

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Don’t rush to conclusions my dear, this kind of enforcing of the law was was handed down to the Israelites its application began and ended with the Israelites.

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Oh really? Care to provide the scriptural backing for that?Even if this is the case, the sensible thing to do would be to remove such egregious filth from the text, but of course, the Bible's status as a holy text prevents such sensible moves.I notice as well that Christians are quite content to pick and choose from the OT, keeping those bits that agree with their biases, and excoriating others. This is not clarity. this is a recipe for disaster. If you are going to insist that the nasty bits of OT law are irrelevant, then the whole is irrelevant.

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Christians however have been taught grace and what to means to love their enemy. We are not free from the law in the sense that we shouldn’t live by it anymore, we should live by it but by accepting God’s gift of eternal life we have escaped death and hell, which is the penalty for breaking God’s law.

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So you need not live by the law, yet you must live by it. You really are hilarious. Do you ever bother to read your posts back to yourself? If you did, you might find it easier to avoid such glaring contradictions. You really can't see the lack of logic in this approach? Wow. You are simply looking at the results of each action and ascribing the blame or credit accordingly. Good result? Yay! The Bible gets the credit! Bad result? Well of course, the Bible can't be to blame.In the real world, life is not this simplistic. Sometimes the Bible has a good influence (Yes, I am saying that the Bible does, sometimes have a good influence. Note that and learn some honesty). Sometimes it has a bad influence. Mostly it is mixed. Cause and effect are not as simplistic as you would like to portray them I'm afraid.

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For some reason you probably think that punishing sinners is not a good work, well, why not? Sinners are lawbreakers in God’s eyes, and punishing lawbreakers is a good thing, it is a noble act. Imagine if no lawbreaker was ever corrected for his lawless act, what world would we have been living in, simply recognizing what is moral is not enough we need to be able to protect morality and punish immorality. So God is doing a good thing when he punishes lawbreakers for their lawlessness.

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I simply disagree with the implicit claim that sin is equal to immorality. If your god displayed any understanding of ethics or morality at all, it might be desirable that he punish the immoral. Instead you claim that he visits his "punishments" upon infants, whether they have committed immoral acts or not. That removes from him any right to sit in judgement over others. Indeed, he should be pointing the finger at himself.Mutate and SurviveEdited by Granny Magda, : Fixed quote attributions.

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

I knew that you are a Christian Fundamentalist but, Wow!!! I think if I looked up Christian fundamentalist in an illustrated dictionary your picture would be there. So you are of the serpent handling, arsenic drinking, speaking in tongues, variety of Christian? Kind of like the hillbillies we have in the Appalachian mountains here in the USA? Serpent handling is illegal here be the way. Anyone can claim this. I want to see this kind of healing documented by trained medical professionals, until then dream on brother!
I've see tumors reduced to barely nothing too! It's called chemotherapy and radiation treatment.
You've seen the crippled walk again? Wow! I work at a bio-tech who's research is partially focused on spinal cord injury. I've see rats made to walk again and this summer we will be allow to try this new technology in humans. This is the hope crippled people have in the real world Cedre! In the real world of medicine.
As for the woman slithering on the ground...possessed? I think not! Sound's like a mental health issue. There are antipsychotic drugs on the market that can help with that.
No god magic required!

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But the bible gives us a way to determine true followers of god with passages like this ones:

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Mar 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

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Actually what you have is a later addition to the book of Mark. Edgar Goodspeed's research reveals that the ending was probably closer to the ending of Matthew since Matthew copied from Mark. If you really believe what you quoted then the majority of people and clergy claiming to be Christian would not fit the bill including yourself. So reality would show that statement to be false. That statement even contradicts Paul's teaching which you prize so much and have valued over what Jesus supposedly taught. If you truly understand what Jesus supposedly taught you would also know that the verse you shared probably would not have come from Jesus.Every time you write you show that you don't understand your own God and the man you claim as your savior. Your belief seems to sway with the verse of the moment. In reality your arguments don't hold water.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

And which one is that?, and be specific.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

No you haven't. You have not seen ANY of this happen. You've seen trickery, you've witnessed people lying straight to your face, but you have not seen any of what you have listed above actually happen. What you should see is that you have lost any and all ability to think critically about what you have seen and what is happening around you.Try taking your Bible goggles off and put your thinking cap on for once.Cheers,
--Caldron68

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Matt 9:2"And, look! they were bringing him a paralyzed man lying on a bed. On seeing their faith Jesus said to the paralytic: "Take courage, child; your sins are forgiven." ...6However, in order for YOU to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" then he said to the paralytic: "Get up, pick up your bed, and go to your home."

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Jesus believed the imperfection of man, as seen by all his ailments stemmed from sin. Otherwise why would he cure a person and say that the persons 'sins were forgiven' ? Yes people still sin, and sin is still in the world of mankind. That does not mean that it will continue indefinitely. God's judgment has not been executed yet. But Jesus, by way of illustration, showed that the sinful world will come to its conclusion. This means that any who are deliberately practicing what God deems as bad, will be judged accordingly. So it IS conditional. It depends on a persons willingness to at least 'try' to live by Gods standards.

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Matt 13:36"Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: "Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field." 37In response he said: "The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man (Jesus); 38the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom (Christs Disciples); but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one (sinful mankind who refuse to accept Jesus as their rightful King), 39and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things , and the reapers are angels. 40Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.

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When all unrepentant sinners (weeds) are evicted, then those left over (fine seed) will be given the opportunity to return to the perfect condition that God had originally purposed. I have shown many of them but you have overlooked them. Just open the Christian scriptures and you will find them. right, and a person with faith in Jesus will 'follow' Jesus. Faith is based on knowledge of Jesus and the way of true worship that he established. That 'Way' is found in the Christian Greek scriptures and those with faith will use those scriptures to worship God in the way God desires to be worshiped. Abraham lived before the Mosaic Law existed and yet he was called by God as a 'Righteous' one. God even went so far as to call him 'my friend' ..... So how cam following the Mosaic Law constitute a person as righteous? Other examples of righteous ones who did not live by the Mosaic Law are Abel, Enoch, Rahab. All righteous and none lived by the Mosaic Law.___________About Pilate telling the Religious Leaders to exectute Jesus and they saying that they had no right to exectute anyone.There are obviously different ideas about this. But when the Romans took over ruling the Jewish lands, they imposed their own laws onto the Jews. So the Romans had Civil authority.There is evidence that the Romans allowed the Jews to maintain Religious authority though. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote an eyewitness account of the Roman assault on Jerusalem in 70C.E., He described how Titus's objected to the rebels who retreated into the temple precinct. Some of these bloodied fighters were in areas that had been off limits because of their sacredness.
Titus was reported as saying...
"You disgusting people! Didn’t you put up that balustrade [or low barrier dividing off part of the courtyard] to guard your Holy House? Didn’t you at intervals along it place slabs inscribed in Greek characters and our own, forbidding anyone to go beyond the parapet?And didn’t we give you leave to execute anyone who did go beyond it, even if he was a Roman? Why then, you guilty men, are you now trampling dead bodies inside it?" The Jewish War.The key to this argument is in the last paragraph where Titus says "didn't we give you leave to execute anyone who did not beyond it"this indicates that the Romans allowed the Jews to practice their Religious law code....including the death penalty...for those who broke the religious laws. I'm sure you can find them in the Greek scriptures. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

I could tell you the one I found, but each must conduct their own search to be convinced of it. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Cedre that may be true, you may have seen it. But how can you be sure that God is its source? Apostle Paul said that powerful works were going to come to an end

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1 Corinthians 13:8 "Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with."

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Remember Jesus strong warning of those who would 'expel demons in his name, and perform powerful works in this name' and yet he will say to them "get away from me you workers of lawlessness." Matthew 7:21-23And why?because "Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light." 2Corinthians 11:14

Sick em, Peg! I love a good Bible-thumping contest!No disrespect Peg. Have a good night

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

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Jesus believed the imperfection of man, as seen by all his ailments stemmed from sin. Otherwise why would he cure a person and say that the persons 'sins were forgiven'?

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Jesus didn't have to believe anything all he had to do was look around. Yes he knew people screwed up. That doesn't take a revelation. He did not suggest that all ailments came from sin. Jesus did not teach that we inherited sin from A&E. Remember the point of the Book of Job. Bad things can happen to good people through no fault of their own.Do you also remember that other pesky little foundational myth about Noah and the flood. God saved one man, righteous in his time, and his family. That was God's chance to wipe the slate clean and start over if he felt that "sin" was inherited or he wanted man to be "perfect" and never make mistakes. The idea that God expected all of humanity to be "perfect" or never ever make mistakes, is not viable.

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Yes people still sin, and sin is still in the world of mankind. That does not mean that it will continue indefinitely. God's judgment has not been executed yet. But Jesus, by way of illustration, showed that the sinful world will come to its conclusion. This means that any who are deliberately practicing what God deems as bad, will be judged accordingly. So it IS conditional. It depends on a persons willingness to at least 'try' to live by Gods standards. ...

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When all unrepentant sinners (weeds) are evicted, then those left over (fine seed) will be given the opportunity to return to the perfect condition that God had originally purposed.

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Which is exactly what I've been saying. God expects us to repent and stop the wrong behavior. Notice the verse says: everything that causes sin and all who do evil. It does not say that those who do no believe will be counted with those who do evil. The verse is based on actions. By your own meaning: Any who are deliberately practicing what God deems as bad will be judged accordingly. It is conditional. It depends on a persons willingness to at least try to live by God's standards.So we are still required to live by God's standards. (You haven't listed them yet, BTW) The Mosaic Law is the only list of standards supposedly from God in the Bible beside the summary by Jesus.Since Christians have taken up the Jewish Bible, they are still going to be judged accordingly to God's laws in the Bible. Unrepentant Christians will suffer the same consequences as anyone else doing intentional wrong.Gentiles on the other had are not required to follow the Mosaic Laws, but that parable tells me that Gentiles who are righteous in their age will not be plucked with those doing evil. I've already shown you several times that righteousness is granted based on behavior. It has also been granted on faith. But, if I remember correctly, those granted on faith also had an action that went with it. Abraham stopped worship other God's, Rahab helped the Hebrew spies. Can faith without action be deemed righteous?

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I have shown many of them but you have overlooked them. Just open the Christian scriptures and you will find them.

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IOW, you don't really know what the specific Christian laws are either.

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purpledawn writes:

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What I'm reading is that following God's law does not make one righteous or get one on the list for resurrection, only faith in Jesus Christ can get one on the list.

right, and a person with faith in Jesus will 'follow' Jesus. Faith is based on knowledge of Jesus and the way of true worship that he established. That 'Way' is found in the Christian Greek scriptures and those with faith will use those scriptures to worship God in the way God desires to be worshiped.

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You're contradicting the story of the weeds and what you just said above.Jesus didn't teach worship, he taught repentance and right behavior. The Jews he taught already knew the Jewish way of worship.

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Abraham lived before the Mosaic Law existed and yet he was called by God as a 'Righteous' one. God even went so far as to call him 'my friend' ..... So how cam following the Mosaic Law constitute a person as righteous? Other examples of righteous ones who did not live by the Mosaic Law are Abel, Enoch, Rahab. All righteous and none lived by the Mosaic Law.

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Read what I wrote. I've already shown you several times in the OT that we are counted righteous for following God's law and the law of the land. Those before the Mosaic law were following the laws of the land, tribe, nation, etc.

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About Pilate telling the Religious Leaders to exectute Jesus and they saying that they had no right to exectute anyone.

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IOW history and the NT authors disagree on what Judaism was and wasn't allowed to do. So it is a draw as far as history goes.In today's world death is not a penalty in the US for crimes other than extreme murder cases. So no fear of death for adultery, lying, stealing, etc. Of course that is irrelevant since you've provided the parable that shows believers are not exempt from the consequences of final judgment. If they are breaking the laws you won't or can't list, then they will suffer the consequences the same as anyone else doing wrong.Peg, you have just shown that neither believers nor nonbelievers are prisoners of sin. Each has the capability to stop wrong behavior and to do right behavior based on the laws and principles available to them.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Here is verse demonstrating that Christians have the power to cast out demons, just let us establish that fact. the subjects of this above verse were ex-Christians or lapsed Christians. My position is borne out below.The question then needed to be asked is, can demons cast out demons, as the pharisee's here charge Jesus of doing Here Jesus is responding to this charge about where his power hails from, It is clear from this scripture that Satan will not cast demons out as by so doing his kingdom will collapse. So we can be sure that when such things occur that it is by the spirit of God and not by Beelzebub the prince of the demons or demons themselves. [qs]1 Corinthians 13:8 "Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with."[qs] Observe that the subject of this verse is not the cessation of the gifts that it mentions, but the author is pointing out that although these various things may cease to exist love will never fail or grow cold, this is obvious, as God is Love and he is eternal. Note also that this verse says nothing about when these gifts will end. I believe they will only end with the second coming of our Lord. This verse further reveals that the gifts will still be around in the last days, thus I resolve that they will only culminate with the advent of Christ in the clouds.

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Remember Jesus strong warning of those who would 'expel demons in his name, and perform powerful works in this name' and yet he will say to them "get away from me you workers of lawlessness." Matthew 7:21-23

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And yet in Mark 9 we have: Really the point to Matthew 7:21-23 is what we've been discussing, right and wrong behavior. That section deals with "knowing them by their fruit", which is their behavior. If they are doing the miracles, but are also stealing or lying to people then they didn't know what Jesus was about. Doing "miracles" doesn't gain them anything in the resurrection. Right behavior does. Jesus isn't saying that miracles are evil, just that they should practice what they preach.That's why it is wise to pay attention to what is happening in real life and not just the words that come out of a preacher's or evangelist's mouth.The words mean nothing if there isn't a reasonable practical application. Saying that one is required to follow Christian "law" but not being able to clearly direct a person to that "law", leaves the words meaningless.God clearly laid out the laws to Moses. Why would we today have to deal with less. What God expects from the average person should be clearly spelled out, no confusion, no reliance on another person to interpret or explain. Otherwise it's not a fair playing field.Claiming that it will "come to you" once a person believes is hogwash. It doesn't stand the test of practical application.