Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Must Reads
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 16 of 27 (507399)
05-04-2009 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by InGodITrust
05-02-2009 3:38 PM


Evolution and the Myth of Creationism
Hi InGod, welcome to EvC!
One book I would highly recommend for the beginner is Evolution and the Myth of Creationism by Tim Berra. It is an older book, but the section explaining evolution and the evidence is concise and easy to read and understand. I just looked and is available used on Amazon for $4.00 including shipping!
And I have to say kudos for reading Origin, it is a difficult read. I really believe everyone should read it, but I do not think it is the best to start with. If you do read it, I think it will make you the first creationist I have encountered who actually did so (although many pretend to). Admirable, to say the least!

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by InGodITrust, posted 05-02-2009 3:38 PM InGodITrust has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 27 (507401)
05-04-2009 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by InGodITrust
05-04-2009 4:38 PM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
I do think, though, that before any science that conflicts with major religions is taught, the teachers should explain the conflict, and also define a scientific theory.
I absolutely agree that teachers should define a scientific theory. I'm not sure it's a good idea for teachers to explain the conflict. Where does that end? Evolution? Geology? Heliocentrism?
Science teachers should be prepared to answer some of the more common creationist arguments but, in a run of the mill junior high or high school science class, the time is already too short to teach everything that kids should know. The last thing we should do is take valuable and scarce class time to mollify the religious sensitivities of every minority sect that yells loud enough.
I think some teachers may just present evolution and the big bang as flat-out, absolute truths.
If any science teacher is presenting anything as a flat-out absolute truth they are doing their students a disservice. There are no absolute flat-out truths in science. However, if they are presenting the ToE as being as well established as anything else in science, then they are simply being accurate.

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by InGodITrust, posted 05-04-2009 4:38 PM InGodITrust has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 18 of 27 (507402)
05-04-2009 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by InGodITrust
05-04-2009 4:38 PM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
Here is how I insert a quote in my reply:
1. Notice that the post I'm replying to is at the bottom of the screen (you might have to scroll down). Also notice in the upper-right-hand corner two radio buttons: Normal:, and Peek Mode:. If you select Peek Mode:, then you can see what dBCodes were used, plus you can copy them into your quote.
2. Insert a quotes box using the dBCodes qs and /qs, each enclosed in square brackets (AKA "gs tags"). It's analogous to HTML tags, which are also allowed here, BTW. You'll see an example of a qs box below.
3. In the message you're replying to, highlight the text that you want to quote and then copy-and-paste it between the qs tags.
Your intention learning evolution so that you can oppose it is laudable, since, as already mentioned, the standard anti-evolution approach is to maintain abject ignorance of the subject. But to flesh out the earlier reference to Sun Tzu's famous quote (this uses quote tags, which have a different effect than qs tags):
quote:
From Scroll III (Offensive Strategy):
31. Therefore I say: "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril.
32. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal.
33. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril."
(Sun Tzu The Art of War, translation by Samuel B.
Griffith, Oxford University Press, 1963)
The others have started to point you in the direction of knowing both your enemy and yourself. Since your main source for anti-evolution materials and claims will be the creationist community, you will need to know about that community and about their claims, which are mainly pure crap. You will also need to know and understand their fears and motivations and ideas, which include (in various degrees) the idea that if evolution is true then God does not exist. So you also need to discover and understand the relationship between science and religion and what that should actually mean to one's faith.
My suggestion for a book is an older one, but one that I felt was excellent:
Science and Earth History: The Evolution/Creation Controversy by Arthur N. Strahler (1999)
The main body consists of pairs of chapters: each pair deals with a particular area of science, such as geology, and then one chapter shows what science has to say about it and the other what creationists have to say. Basically, the science chapter will counter claims made in the creationist chapter by showing what the evidence actually is. Earlier chapters also explain the nature of science and discusses the relationship between science and religion.
It is available at amazon.com, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.amazon.com/Science-Earth-History-Evolution-Controversy/dp/1573927171/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241471861&sr=1-5
The following was created with qs tags:
InGodITrust writes:
I do think, though, that before any science that conflicts with major religions is taught, the teachers should explain the conflict, and also define a scientific theory. And quiz the kids on the definition of a scientific theory. I think some teachers may just present evolution and the big bang as flat-out, absolute truths.
That just kind of jumped out at me because it almost looked like you were starting to head in the direction "it's just a theory!", which is the first indication that that person doesn't know what a theory is. I also chose to include it because then I could demonstrate a qs box to you. There's a Peek button attached to my message; you can use that to see what the tags look like.
One of the problems in science education is that too often teachers will teach it as a set of conclusions -- here they are, now learn them. For one thing, that's boring. For another, that creates a false impression that they're just arbitrary, a false impression that creationists seek to exploit. Instead, teachers need to also teach the students how scientists had arrived at those conclusions. Not only does that dispell the false impression of arbitrary claims, but it also makes science so much more interesting and easier to learn -- we raised my boys the second way and they loved science; my nephew had learned the first way and science was his most hated subject in school.
Part of that is, of course, to teach what a theory is and how science works. Part of that should also cover what science actually has to say about the supernatural and about any of the gods -- which is basically that science cannot and does not deal with the supernatural and it has nothing to say about the gods. Unfortunately, addressing specific religious beliefs would most likely be stepping way out-of-line; at most, the teacher might point out that there is no conflict as far as science is concerned and that there is no way that science could possibly disprove the gods, nor does it want to try to. It is unfortunate that the teacher wouldn't be able to address specific religious beliefs, because it is certain religious sects who are the ones actively teaching that there is a conflict; the creation/evolution "controversy" does not actually exist, but rather is a creationist fabrication.
So, I do hope that you will follow through and learn evolution, as well as all the other branches of science (since creationism targets them as well in their claims; eg, geology, astronomy). And that you will also read up on creationist claims and science's responses to those claims. Know the enemy and know yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by InGodITrust, posted 05-04-2009 4:38 PM InGodITrust has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by InGodITrust, posted 05-05-2009 4:09 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 19 of 27 (507409)
05-04-2009 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by InGodITrust
05-04-2009 4:38 PM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
Anyway, I'm not very familiar with Creationism, but if it is true that it is not true science, but religion disguised as science, then I don't want it taught in schools either.
It is not science. It has nothing at all to do with science. It's about trying to prove a pre-existing conclusion by acknowledging that which supprots the conclusion and dismissing that which does not, and it's further complicated by extreme dishonesty and ignorance such that Creationsits put forward "evidence" that in reality supports nothing approaching what they believe it to support.
Not only would children miss out on learning true science, but it would also violate our principle of separation of church and state.
This is why Creationism and it's inbred stepchild Intelligent Design have been excluded from public classrooms by the Supreme Court.
I do think, though, that before any science that conflicts with major religions is taught, the teachers should explain the conflict,
That's unfortunately a bit unreasonable. Which major religions? Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hindu? Which denomination of each? Some Chrsitians have no problem with evolution and an old Earth; many others do. Hindus have no issue with an old Earth, but would conflict basically everything else in the other major religions.
Why not simply teach science, with a statement by the teacher that what they are learning is what can be independantly verified to be highly accurate through methodical observation and testing, along with an in-depth examination of teh scientific methiod and how/why it leads to accurate representations of reality?
Why not simply teach science?
and also define a scientific theory. And quiz the kids on the definition of a scientific theory. I think some teachers may just present evolution and the big bang as flat-out, absolute truths.
It's worse than that - many teachers don't understand evolution themselves. Students are rarely exposed to a real, solid class on evolution until the college level, and that only if they take biology classes. High school level biology may spend all of a week on evolution, and many students still walk away thinking that a "mutant" is something akin to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, or that evolution will eventually lead to the world portrayed in the "X-Men" movies. When they're taught that "birds became dinosaurs," they frequently believe that they are being told that, literally, a T-rex transformed into a pigeon - this is why people like Ray Comfort expect evolution to result in weird half-dog, half-cat chimeras.
The quality of science education needs to be drastically improved in this country, and that's not going to happen when religious institutions are allowed to interfere with scientific instruction. We tried that back when the church burned heretics for suggesting that the Bible may not be a viable historical account; the results for humanity were less than ideal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by InGodITrust, posted 05-04-2009 4:38 PM InGodITrust has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 20 of 27 (507411)
05-04-2009 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by InGodITrust
05-04-2009 4:38 PM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
DA, you're concerned about Creationism being taught in schools in place of science.
Actually I am pretty confident this well never happen on a universal scale. However, where I lack confidence is when local school boards elect idiots for representatives who allow or even solicit antiscientific ideas such as creationism to creep into the school curriculum and in the process dumb down our prodegy.
Anyway, I'm not very familiar with Creationism, but if it is true that it is not true science, but religion disguised as science, then I don't want it taught in schools either.
I applaud your honesty and your ability to discern reality from fiction. BTW, creationism and "intelligent design" are not true science but don't take my word for it. Keep researching it on your own.
Not only would children miss out on learning true science, but it would also violate our principle of separation of church and state.
Totally agree
I do think, though, that before any science that conflicts with major religions is taught, the teachers should explain the conflict, and also define a scientific theory.
These conflicts should be taught in religion classes not science classes. There is just not enough time to cover all the different conflicts between science and religion i.e. Hinduism vs science, Budhism vs science, Christianity vs science, etc ad infinitim in science classes. Neither is it the responsibility of science to do so. Science only covers natural and knowable phenomena. Religion attempts to explain the potentially unknowable (also called supernatural). Leave science in the science classroom and religion in the religion classroom. It is really that simple.
And quiz the kids on the definition of a scientific theory.
This is already being done in introductory science classes.
I think some teachers may just present evolution and the big bang as flat-out, absolute truths.
What you claim as being taught as absolute truths is what most science teachers are just claiming to be taught as the most probable explanations of natural phenomena i.e. scientific theories. Only religion teaches in absolutes.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by InGodITrust, posted 05-04-2009 4:38 PM InGodITrust has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RCS, posted 05-21-2009 7:34 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 27 (507417)
05-04-2009 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by InGodITrust
05-02-2009 3:38 PM


I am a Christian, and eventually want to find arguments that disprove evolution ...
You know, if there were any, someone would have found them already.
Also, which are the best works against evolution?
There are no creationist works that are not riddled with inaccuracies.
There's a reason for this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by InGodITrust, posted 05-02-2009 3:38 PM InGodITrust has not replied

  
InGodITrust
Member (Idle past 1669 days)
Posts: 53
From: Reno, Nevada, USA
Joined: 05-02-2009


Message 22 of 27 (507432)
05-05-2009 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by dwise1
05-04-2009 6:02 PM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
Here is how I insert a quote in my reply:
Thanks dwise1, for those instructions.
And thanks everyone for all the additional book suggestions.
I guess I have to say I'm disappointed to be learning here that there are no arguments against evolution that scientists find credible, so no books to explain any. For some reason I had been under the impression that a percentage of the scientific community disputed evolution. Guess I may check out one of the creationist books, or just do some reading about it on the web, and here on this forum.
I noticed the administrator here on the board does a good job of keeping threads on topic, and I went off topic a little in this thread with the school stuff, so I'll quit with that.
Edited by InGodITrust, : added more

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by dwise1, posted 05-04-2009 6:02 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 05-05-2009 8:20 AM InGodITrust has not replied
 Message 25 by Aussie, posted 05-06-2009 10:40 AM InGodITrust has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 23 of 27 (507449)
05-05-2009 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by InGodITrust
05-05-2009 4:09 AM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
InGodITrust writes:
guess I have to say I'm disappointed to be learning here that there are no arguments against evolution that scientists find credible, so no books to explain any.
So far in this thread you've only gotten the opinions of evolutionists. Creationists will tell you that increasing numbers of scientists are seeing the serious flaws in evolution and are abandoning it for ideas actually supported by the evidence, like creation science and intelligent design. It's a flat-out lie, of course, but who are you going to believe? You don't want to make an arbitrary decision, so you have to start investigating a bit, as your'e doing now. That's the way many of us started, and some of us just can't stop!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by InGodITrust, posted 05-05-2009 4:09 AM InGodITrust has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 24 of 27 (507533)
05-05-2009 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by InGodITrust
05-02-2009 3:38 PM


I am a Christian, and eventually want to find arguments that disprove evolution, ...
Why are you starting out with that specific goal? Before you even know anything about evolution.
Or rather, you should be asking yourself that question. Think about your reasons and motivation for engaging in this course of study in support of that goal. And consider the assumptions that those reasons and motivation are based on. This would be part of understanding yourself, as per the Sun Tzu quotation.
Then as you research and study, you should also be testing those assumptions. Keep an eye open for articles and discussions concerning those assumptions.
My assumption here, based on over 20 years of discussions with creationists, is that you have been told or taught that evolution and your religion are totally incompatible; as some creationists have put it: "If evolution is true, then the Bible is false and God is either a Liar or just plain does not exist." Extreme, yes, but that was part of the assumptions that those creationists were operating under.
So if your assumptions are inclined towards that direction, it would behoove you to examine the question of whether evolution is truly antithetical to Christianity. Whether one can accept evolution and still be a Christian. Conversation with Christians who accept evolution could be a part of that part of your research.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by InGodITrust, posted 05-02-2009 3:38 PM InGodITrust has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 25 of 27 (507562)
05-06-2009 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by InGodITrust
05-05-2009 4:09 AM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
Hi InGodITrust,
My sincere congratulations and best wishes to you as you begin your endeavor to educate yourself in this debate.
I guess I have to say I'm disappointed to be learning here that there are no arguments against evolution that scientists find credible, so no books to explain any. For some reason I had been under the impression that a percentage of the scientific community disputed evolution. Guess I may check out one of the creationist books, or just do some reading about it on the web, and here on this forum.
I began exactly the way in which you are beginning now. I was raised in the church, and had no doubt as to the existence of God, and had never entertained the possibility that evolution might be true. But I became hungry to learn more about evolution because I felt this would help make my faith stronger, and also help me share the faith with others. I had already memorized a huge section of creationist arguments, and could keep a discussion going for ages on WHY evolution was false...but only among christians. Whenever I talked with an "Evolutionist" *gasp*, I found my arguments rang a little more hollow than they did in Bible study groups.
Quite by accident, I came across a Biology textbook, and I decided to do what you are doing right now--learn more. This is a good and worthwhile undertaking for you. Within a couple hours of reading, I started getting a funny feeling in the pit of my stomach, and found myself thinking, "Gee, this doesn't sound as absurd as AIG or ICR make it out to be."
These few hours were the first tentative, wobbly steps that I took in a fantastic and truly fulfilling journey of discovery, and I will never forget them. I have been forced to confront many issues, and new knowledge has opened my heart and mind to a beautiful, complex world. You are doing the right thing; I don't think you will regret it.
Maybe you have picked up on a recurrent theme here in this thread so far: Don't take ANYONE'S word for ANYTHING. Neither your creationist books, nor anyone here are infallible. They serve to simply guide you in your own study; but they do a very good job at it. It is hard to go wrong if you insist on learning, and become able to defend the WHY of any proposition for yourself. But I must tell you that the more I actually learned, the sillier the creationists' literature sounded, so don't be surprised if that happens.
One last thing too...please don't take any newfound knowledge you might gain as an attack on your faith. Take it step by step, piece by piece, and you will do well. If you give yourself time, reading and comparing both the creationist books, and also the books from the evolutionary perspective that have been offered here, this could become a really enjoyable ride.
Good Luck!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by InGodITrust, posted 05-05-2009 4:09 AM InGodITrust has not replied

  
RCS
Member (Idle past 2607 days)
Posts: 48
From: Delhi, Delhi, India
Joined: 07-04-2007


Message 26 of 27 (509396)
05-21-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by DevilsAdvocate
05-04-2009 7:19 PM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
Hinduism vs science and Budhism vs science would be papers of ZERO length.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-04-2009 7:19 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 05-21-2009 8:35 AM RCS has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 27 of 27 (509406)
05-21-2009 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by RCS
05-21-2009 7:34 AM


Re: Hey Devil's Advocate and Percy
RCS writes:
Hinduism vs science and Budhism vs science would be papers of ZERO length.
LOL, I totally agree. Budhists and Hindus are less absolute in there beliefs than that of many fundamentalist Christians. The issue, I believe, is not so much to do with the religion itself as the interpretation of these religious texts. Hence, why many Christian theists have no issues with the scientific concepts of biological and cosmological evolution whereas many Christian fundamentalists do.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RCS, posted 05-21-2009 7:34 AM RCS has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024