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Author Topic:   why is the lack of "fur" positive Progression for humans?
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 119 of 202 (508694)
05-15-2009 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Blue Jay
05-15-2009 4:20 PM


Re: I'm Baaaaaack
Blue Jay, I missed you.
We must remember, the genus Homo has been around a relatively short time. One thing we have learned from fossils is our trip from our divergence from apes some 5 million years ago is that the path seems quite complex.
Homo Habilis, if this is it, has had little time to evolve specialized hair that wards off parasites, and sheds water quickly. It's very close relative, the chimp, has wiry hair.
The wiry hair of a chimp would not do well in the water. Also, it would not ward off parasites, a water hazard. Being naked allows Homo Habilis the ability to dry almost instantly, and all parasites would be visible for removal. Naked is the way to go, if you ever skinny dipped before you would know. Put a fir coat on then swim..... Sure.
The very fact most investigators include Florensis and Habilis in our genus, gives them deserved consideration. If you look at an H Habilis skull next to H Florensis, they look very much the same. Think of it, this is our first Homo sp. Somehow this clever hominid managed the long trip to Indonesia. They say activity in their cave goes back 800,000 years. That is a long survival period. Seems H Sapiens put an end to them the same time they put an end to H Erectus.
The thought goes now that H Habilis looks more like an ancestor than H Erectus. The hominids on Florensis Island were specialized swimmers. They could not have started the trip without being specialized water babies.
We are naked, graceful, and rich brained. This is nothing like a chimp. H Habilis was smart. He could outwit carnivores. Lion, tigers and bears attack and the little hobbit dives into the water. They do not follow.
He had tool knowledge. You know what? I am really confident now this was my daddy far removed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Blue Jay, posted 05-15-2009 4:20 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 120 of 202 (508695)
05-15-2009 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Taq
05-15-2009 5:05 PM


Re: I'm Baaaaaack
Oh boy! we are having a party. The Hobbit was no pack hunter. Not with those flipper feet. No sir!
They surely had no bones about trapping their prey.
Our choice of what to take to the beach is go naked or wear chimp fur. I choose naked for the reasons I put out.
Hey, Florensis is a Homo sp. who has flat long feet. These feet are specialized water fins. They worked their way over thousands of miles to Flores, using their water knowledge and skills. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing them.

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 Message 118 by Taq, posted 05-15-2009 5:05 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 122 by Taq, posted 05-15-2009 5:33 PM arrogantape has replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 121 of 202 (508696)
05-15-2009 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by arrogantape
05-15-2009 5:27 PM


Re: I'm Baaaaaack
Of course we need to learn to swim. It is also true kids today of water cultures pick it up naturally before they can walk.
I never was taught to swim. My best stroke is a side stroke, and glide, or a back swim.
Obviously, the Flores Hobbit can race under the water.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 123 of 202 (508698)
05-15-2009 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Taq
05-15-2009 5:33 PM


Re: I'm Baaaaaack
Like I said, look at their feet. They can't run or even walk gracefully. Laying pit traps on the elephant's paths would do well. Then all they need to do is dispatch the prey, and cut it up.
The island of Flores had no big carnivores. A patient waiting game would suit these little folks good.
Homo Erectus was also in the neighborhood. Maybe not on Flores, but certainly nearby, They had modern feet like our own. They could run, and defend themselves better than the little folk
You just cannot escape this little hominid worked his way over thousands of miles of coastline to reach Indonesia. They did it on abnormally long flat feet. They worked the shoreline. Slam dunk!

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 Message 122 by Taq, posted 05-15-2009 5:33 PM Taq has not replied

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 125 of 202 (508731)
05-15-2009 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by RAZD
05-15-2009 8:03 PM


Re: A simple question ... dimorphism
Hi RAZD,
I can't see how Florensis is off topic. He was obviously more adapted to swimming rather than walking. It is my belief, water acclimation encouraged bipedalism, smooth body lines, and hairlessness.
We are not H Habilis. Ergaster, a lankier version of Homo, bridged Habilis to H Sapiens, as it looks now. Since we were H Habilis, the swimmer, we have evolved much better wrist and ankle/foot motion to bring it to any comers. Sure, more sexual dimorphism would occur. Like you say, men run the breadth between hairless to fur balls. The need for sleek bods was greatly reduced when we became predominately terrestrial.
I don't think claiming we all have just as much hair as chimp is constructive in this debate. Having peach fuzz is what makes us look naked. In the water, the peach fuzz has negligable drag. Olympian swimmer have noted faster times swimming nude.
I think it is getting harder for folks to turn their shoulder to the semi-aquatic ape. H Florensis has drastically changed the game rules.
Edited by arrogantape, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 131 of 202 (508744)
05-15-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by RAZD
05-15-2009 9:05 PM


Re: A simple question ... dimorphism
RAZD
You obviously are not reading my writing very well. The hominid line is nearly infinitely shorter than that of porpoises or seals. Our ancestors were water dependent perhaps only for some hundred thousand years before Ergaster struck out overland.
In that early period of development we have an ancestor who fits the picture of an aquatic ape. Not only is it found leagues away from it's homeland, with no explanation how it accomplished that feat, it also retains a chimp's foot, except elongated.
Our line split from Homo Habilis long before H Florensius found the island of Flores. We had the next 250,000 years to be modified into our present state. It isn't unusual at all for a separated population to acquire some regressive traits, like more hair.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by RAZD, posted 05-15-2009 9:05 PM RAZD has replied

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 132 of 202 (508745)
05-15-2009 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by RAZD
05-15-2009 9:05 PM


Re: A simple question ... dimorphism
So we have vestigial hair. Peach fuzz is a far cry from chimp fur. Chimp hair is a drag when swimming. It's like you wearing mohair sweater. There is hair, then their is hair. One long and shaggy, the other fine peach fuzz. One goes through the water much faster. H Habilis made it to Indonesia with flipper feet. What do you think? Was he furry, like a chimp? Or was he finely peach fuzzed. This is a no brainer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by RAZD, posted 05-15-2009 9:05 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 135 by bluescat48, posted 05-16-2009 1:19 AM arrogantape has replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 136 of 202 (508814)
05-16-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by bluescat48
05-16-2009 1:19 AM


Re: A simple question ... dimorphism
RAZD, These are the points I am making
1) The notion we became upright by peering over long savannah grass has been discredited.
2) Another model is needed.
3) Generally we are not furry. We are the naked ape. Even the hairiest of us is no match for all the other apes coats.
4) It is a fact the barer we are, the faster we swim.
5) H Habilis migrated by water to far shores. So says the science community.
6) They have feet really only good for boost under and over water.
7) I think it is more than safe to assume H Habilis was the first naked ape. Why? because being smooth and sleek (don't forget our posterior) assists in efficient swimming. There is no valid argument chimp fur is fine for a swimmer. That is nonsense.
8) Certainly, the after Habilis path to H Sapiens would bring changes too.
Questions - Why do you think we are the naked ape? Why do we have smoothing subcutaneous fat? Why do we exude copious amount of salt through sweating? Why is fish a great food for our system, while red meat kills us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by bluescat48, posted 05-16-2009 1:19 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 138 by RAZD, posted 05-16-2009 1:35 PM arrogantape has replied
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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 140 of 202 (508847)
05-16-2009 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by RAZD
05-16-2009 1:35 PM


Re: A simple question ... dimorphism
Dimorphism. You trot this trait out and call it a deal breaker. I happen to have pigmented hair all over my body. It grows, stretched out, to about a centimeter. Male gorillas are a whole lot bigger than me, and though different tribes vary in fur covering, they both have far more fur than you and I. I guess gorillas are some kind of exception.
The Hobbit was a hominid remnant on an island with no large carnivores. I doubt very much these flat footed hominids crossed India on foot. Their feet would be a big hindrance. The literature says they moved by water. I will go with that. H Habilis was handy, but weaving sea going rafts is going to have to wait for the polynesians. For such a small animal, flight would be the best defense. Running is not an option. Jumping into and diving under the water is a very good defense against land carnivores.
My little hairs hold me back little, compared to any clothing. When I pull myself out of the river onto a sunny rock, I can feel my hairs, as they spring outward after a quick dry.
When one is suffering from wet hypothermia the field procedure to follow is to strip the sufferer from his wet clothes, and and sandwich him between two naked bodies under down covers. The point being, clothing and fur are good for some things, but not for swimming. Matted fur would take exponentially longer to dry than our puny hairs.
H Habilis would be no more inclined to migrate over the world than a chimp, if it didn't have some advantageous development. The long flat foot makes a great flipper. If he is going to have a specialized feet, then it is easy to imagine smooth lightly haired bodies too.
You also like to compare our bodies to seals and the such. Cormorants dive into the water to catch fish. So do penguins. Cormorants have to dry themselves, unfolding their wings to air dry, or warm themselves. Penguins are more specialized doing the same thing. The White Tailed Kite can hover, and uses this capability to catch prey. However, the White Tailed Kite is no hummingbird.
Seals, if they could stand, would be bipedal, their hind quarters in line. We humans are extremely graceful with the water. No other ape can even approach our ability in water. We use our talent to spear fish, and gather abalone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by RAZD, posted 05-16-2009 1:35 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 142 of 202 (508852)
05-16-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by bluescat48
05-16-2009 5:41 PM


Re: A simple question ... dimorphism
Hi Bluesat48, The move of H Habilis to Flores was a migratory move. This is easy to a handle on if your foodstuff exists in a narrow band along the coast. It's like us trout fishermen. Out of courtesy, we circumvent a hole being fished by another, and move onto the next.
I answered your boat question, but it was buried. Handy Man was surely keen for a little brain fellow. but he was no captain.
Oh yeah, sharks and crocs. No one said Handy Man had a free ride. H Erectus took the land route to the same environs in Indonesia. He had legs, feet, and height we have,
Edited by arrogantape, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by bluescat48, posted 05-16-2009 5:41 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 145 of 202 (508942)
05-17-2009 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by bluescat48
05-17-2009 1:45 AM


Re: A simple question ... dimorphism
""""nowhere does it state that h. habilis ever left Africa. A map inclued with the article shows the route taken by H. erectus
but shows that H habilis stayed in the area between Olduvai Gorge and Lake Turkana.""""
Except for one thing. H Florensis is very much the same as H Habilis. Comparing skulls, the similarity is striking.
H Erectus had a body like ours, with a not ready brain. H Florensis is very unlikely to have evolved from H Erectus because of H Florensis's decididly archaic rists and feet.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 147 of 202 (508988)
05-17-2009 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by RAZD
05-17-2009 3:51 PM


Re: A simple question ... dimorphism
RAZD, Thanks for the quote tutoring. I am a grab the package and rip male. Also, thanks for the pretty pictures of hominid skulls. you are not showing me anything I don't know, however.
I am sure you understand the path to Homo Sapiens is unsure. The fact Habilis is thought to have given rise to H Heidelbergensis, H Georgicus, and perhaps H Erectus, it's my opinion there is no reason to think we are descendants of H Erectus as well.
H Habilis, despite it's small brain, was quite handy. Interesting H Georgicus individuals were found way up in the old USSR. I instantly got this vision of these guys looking out upon the steppes, and muttering, "We ain't in Africa anymore," just before their demise. These archaic heroes fit Japanese movie scripts of the unsung warrior very well.
You have to wonder what these guys were doing there, and why they are lonely in the fossil record. They are thought derivative from H Habilis, as is most likely H Florensius. I don't think H Erectus ever played a part in our evolution. H Habilis, if H Florensis is their kin. was long lived and successful.
Unfortunately, we don't have feet fossils. That would clear up a lot of questions. I found I am not alone in thinking H Habilis started the nudist trait. I got this from Wikipedia:
[Such traits as noticeable whites in the eyes, smaller hairs resulting in exposed skin, and a naked appearance remain theoretical.]
Yes, theoretical. That is all we have. Like you, I am a vigilant student of physical anthropology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2009 3:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 149 of 202 (509068)
05-18-2009 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by RAZD
05-17-2009 10:28 PM


Re: woodland forest apes and bareness selection
RAZD, we are agreeing on more things, showing flexibility, for one thing, and perhaps we are not so different in our opinions overall.
I am going to have to work on the procedures to upload photos, and outside quotes. There is a picture I found of Floriensis's foot compared to it's femur. You probably have seen it. The foot is monstrous. It is not only long, it is wide as well and totally flat. That is a ridiculous adaptation for land use. The only thing I can think of where their foot can be an asset is for underwater swimming. Being a former scuba diver, I can attest to the serious gain in propulsion using a flat, wide, and long flipper.
Well, off to another science forum where folks are arguing birds aren't dinosaurs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2009 10:28 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 151 of 202 (509088)
05-18-2009 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by bluescat48
05-18-2009 1:46 PM


Re: woodland forest apes and bareness selection
Bluescat48, we ain't bars.
A quote:
"Tolkien's hobbits walked an awful long way, but the real "hobbit", Homo floresiensis, would not have got far.
Its flat, clown-like feet probably limited its speed to what we would consider a stroll, and kept its travels short, says Bill Jungers, an anthropologist at the State University of New York in Stony Brook."

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 153 of 202 (509108)
05-18-2009 6:22 PM


That was a quote from New Science.
Here i another quote from Anthropology.net This one concerns H Floresiensis's archac wrist:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Flores scaphoid shape and articular surfaces are more triangular in shape and lacks the larger articular surface on the palmar side which is seen in modern humans and Neandertals. Curiously, the scaphoid also has a fused centrale; a condition seen in H. habilis."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Now the Hobbit shares a strikingly similar skull to H Habilis found in Africa, and also the same wrist bone configuration.
I am just waiting for some anthropologist to echo my educated guess what the clown feet were good for.
I would like archeologists to dig deep in every coastal cave around India, and Africa.

  
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