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Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Dedicated to Purpledawn who as asked to see a list of christian laws.
Unlike the Mosaic Law, the Christian laws are not given as one continuous list of laws. They are found throughout the writings of the NT in discussions and discourses given by the Apostles. So you need to read the NT in its entirety to find them. At 1 COR 9:21 the Apostle Paul said quote: So what exactly is the Law of the Christ? It was always Gods purpose to remove the burden of the Mosaic law from the people and given them a new one."Look! There are days coming and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a NEW COVENANT; not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers [Mosiac Law]" (Jer31:31) quote: As you can see it is scriptural. The mosaic law was fortold to be removed and a new covenant, a new avenue of approach to God, was to be put in place. The Apostles of Christ confirmed that the new covenant had come into place and they called it the 'Law of the Christ' So what is it? The law of the Christ is repeatedly associated with freedom. The apostles referred to it as "the law of a free people" and "the perfect law that belongs to freedom." (John 8:31, 32 & James 1:25, 2:12)This is the most unique aspect of the law....unlike the Mosaic law, no one is born into it. One must choose it and no one can compel another to live by it. Also race and place of birth are irrelevant, it is completely based on free will. While the Mosaic Law was designed to teach man that he is sinful and in dire need of a sacrifice to redeem him, the law of the Christ taught that the Messiah had come, paid the ransom price with his life, and opened the way for us to be freed from sin and death.
quote: Another stiking difference between the two covenants is that Jesus never wrote down a single law. Instead, he lived this law. By means of his perfect life course, he laid down a pattern for all to follow. So really, understanding the Law of the Christ, means understanding Jesus the Man. This explains why Christianity was called 'The Way' in the first century. It was a way of life that the followers of christ lived. To imitate Jesus was to obey this law. Their intense love of him meant that this law was indeed written on their hearts, as prophesied and because love motivated them, they were not oppressed by the law, it was as Jesus said"Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am mild tempered and lowly at heart and you will find refreshment for your souls" Peter also mentioned this when he said :
quote: The essence of Christian law is love. They were taught to love as Jesus did. They were to base all their actions on Love and in this way they could fulfill the law of the Christ. The sermon on the mount and some of Jesus parables such as the good samaritan are codes of conduct that Jesus practiced and worthy of imitation. Here are a few more...perhaps others can add to the list._____________________________________ 1. John 13:34I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another._______________ 2. Galatians 6:2 "Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ" _____________ 3. 1John 4:21 "21And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also" _____________ 4. 1John 3:23"Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and be loving one another" ______________ 5. Matt 28:18 "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying:...Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU _____________ 6. Eph 5:33"let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband" _____________ 7. Acts 15:28"For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication" _____________ 8. Eph 4:29 "Let a rotten saying not proceed out of your mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers." ____________ 9. Romans 13:13 "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities" _____________ 10. 1Timothy 3:3-12 (these requirements put polygamy on the outer) "be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 8 be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience. 11Women should likewise be serious, not slanderous, moderate in habits, faithful in all things. 12Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife ______________ Please feel free to add NT laws to the list. Edited by Peg, : No reason given. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Phat writes: I always thought that the law was now written on our hearts? the laws are written on hearts, but a person must first learn what those christian principles and moral standards are, otherwise how will they get there?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Hi bluejay,
Bluejay writes: I'm curious. In your opinion, what does this mean for the 10 Commandments? Do they still stand as a code of conduct for Christians to follow? Or, are they outdated now? as you know, the Mosaic Law was given only to the isrealites and no other nation. according to Paul it had a special purpose..."To make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made ... Consequently the Law has become our tutor [or, teacher] leading to Christ." Galatians 3:19-24 Once the Christ had appeard, he fulfilled the requirements of the Law and sacrificed himself for the salvation of all mankind. When God accepted Jesus sacrifice Paul could say at Gal 3:10 "Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law," and at Rom 10.4 Christ is the end of the Law" Regarding the 10 commandments, Paul showed that christians were no longer required to observe even them. Rom 7:6-7 "Now we have been discharged from the Law...Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: 'You must not covet.'" You probably recognize that law as the last of the Ten Commandments. This shows the whole law including the sabbaths, festivals, sacrifices and all that went along with it was no longer relevant.
bluejay writes: I have never understood why the authority to dictate Christian laws, as you see them, continues after Christ's death (as in Paul's letters), but ends before the Middle Ages? It always seemed like an arbitrary cutoff point to me. you may not realize it, but I think you are referring to the Great Apostasy that was foretold by the apostles. It was to be a time of darkness for those in the congregations. Perhaps its better for another thread. Edited by Peg, : No reason given. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Hi purpledawn,
Purpledawn writes: When I say law, I mean something legally binding and enforced by a controlling authority. The Mosaic Laws in the OT were written as laws that had consequences that would be enforced by the controlling human authority and sometimes by God.
The christian congregation became the controlling authority.The qualified christian minister was told to help those other christians if they were sinning. Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness but if someone unrepentantly continued down the wrong path then more serious action on the part of the congregation was to be taken. Basically its talking about excommunication. The whole congregation were to stop associating with the wrongdoer. That is how christian justice is delivered. No more beheadings, no more stoning...If the person did not love God and love Gods laws, then those laws were not in his heart and therefore he was not a part of the new covenant so he did not deserve to be in the congregation.
quote: purpledawn writes: Interesting that you didn't mention the two most important commandments supposedly expressed by Jesus to one of the teachers of the law depicted in Mark 12:28-31 and restated in Matthew 22:34-40. Of course those two are part of what you call the Mosaic Law.This "new" commandment doesn't seem to be any different than the love your neighbor as yourself commandment (Leviticus 19:18) that Jesus said was the second most important commandment taken by the Mishnah i didnt write every christian law, I started the list off and am hoping others might add to it. But yes, Love is the fundamental law of the Christ. He said all the law hung on the principle of Love which is why he could say that two greatest commands were to Love God and neighbor. Its not surprising to see some similarities between the Mosaic Law and the Law of the Christ. Jesus explained the Mosaic Law and lived it. But the reason why it was not longer applicable was because it required animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sins and as an approach to God. Once Jesus died as a sacrifice, then the requirements of the Law were no longer necessary. People could now approach God through their faith in the shed blood of Jesus...they didnt need to offer animals.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: Who was given the authority to make laws and when were they given the authority and by whom? The ultimate authority is God Almighty. Paul explained that Jesus is subject to that one at 1Cor11:3But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God But God has given Jesus great authority who in turn has delegated some of his authority to his 12 apostles. The authority he assigned to them was that of teaching people.
quote: purpledawn writes: The modern day Levite. Interesting. 1 Corinthians 5:11 is equivalent to Leviticus 18:8 its not strange that many christian laws are similar to the mosaic, afterall the mosaic laws were Gods standards....they are still his standards. Jesus lived by those standards, loved those standards and taught those standards.The difference between the two covenants was choice/free will. If you were born a jew, you had no choice but to follow the mosaic law. You didnt have to love it, you just had to obey it. The new covenant was purely by choice. Only those who loved Christ would want to follow it. purpledawn writes: In the many Protestant churches I've been to, I have yet to see anyone excommunicated for continuing to misbehave in their life outside the church. Have you actually witnessed this taking place in your country? In the Protestant churches I've been to the preacher doesn't even hold the power to do such a thing without the approval of the Church Board. I certainly have experienced it. I was excommunicated myself for choosing a relationship outside of the church. I have since been reinstated and am happily a part of the congregation again.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: Verses please!Love is not a law.! Please be specific when defining a law. There is no place for metaphor in a law. That's what I mean by no clarity. According to the christians, Love was a law, it was the greatest law because Love would prevent a person from breaking other laws. This is likely why the prophet Jerimiah says "the law will be written on their hearts" because those who loved God would choose to follow Christ.
quote: purpledawn writes: 1. Jesus is talking to his 11 disciples after Judas left and seems to mean amongst themselves, not necessarily others. 2. The verb "love" as used today carries a more limited meaning ( to hold dear) than the Greek "agapaō" seems to carry. (to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly). Christian view of agape: In the New Testament, agapē is charitable, selfless, altruistic, and unconditional. It is parental love, seen as creating goodness in the world; it is the way God is seen to love humanity, and it is seen as the kind of love that Christians aspire to have for one another. The Christian version is amongst Christians, not necessarily all mankind. 3. We don't really know how Jesus "loved" his disciples. There are no specifics for people to know what they are being judged against. 1. Jesus had more then just his 12 apostles as followers. The fact that Jesus commissioned the apostles to teach and baptize shows that it extended to all mankind. 2. The invitation goes out to all mankind. christianity isnt limited to one race. Its for all mankind and its extended to all mankind. 3. At John 15:13 Jesus said "No one has love [agpe] greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends. You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." the sort of love that Jesus showed was 'unconditional' That is the sort of love they were to show. Thats what agape means. Its a love based on principle as opposed to affection for instance. Jesus gave his life because he had love based on principle (agape)
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: 2. Galatians 6:2 "Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ" Again you need to be specific. The law of Christ doesn't really mean anything if there isn't really any legal law. this verse in galatians shows that the 'law of the Christ' is closely aligned with love. 'Go on carrying the burdens of one another'The way they treated each other would determine whether they were fulfilling the Law of Christ or not. purpledawn writes: The problems I see with this being a legal law is that for this to be a fair law, every person would need to be capable of carrying another's burden; even those whose burdens are being carried, otherwise it isn't a fair law. that depends what the burden is...if you read a bit further in verse 5 Paul says "For each one will carry his own load," The word Paul used for "load" is phortion, signifying something that is to be borne or carried, without any reference to the weight of the thing.But for 'burden' ba're, a Greek word denoting something heavy. So there is a distinction between "burdens" and "load" in these verses. A load is what is expected, but a burden is something in addition to what you might normally carry, thus weighing you down. So Paul isnt telling christians to carry the responsibilities of others. Rather he's saying to support them when they are under trials. That could be a shoulder to cry on for instance. purpledawn writes: Wouldn't this be a law by your standard? I haven't heard this one used as a law before, but given how you're picking them it might as well be. Galations 6:6Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. If it's not, why not? If one acts with love, they likely will share what they have. The first century christians practiced giving and charitable acts. They gave of their resources to those in physical need. Giving is just another aspect of Love.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: Again the love one another scenerio. These, as the others, may be specifications under the love one another verse, but are they to be enforced by God? they certainly will be enforced by God and for good reason.
[quote]1 John 4:20, 21 "If anyone makes the statement: 'I love God,' and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment wehave from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.[/qs] purpledawn writes: What makes this a Christian law that we will be judged against before God? 9. Romans 13:13 "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities" this is a law because "for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authroities that exist have been established by God."If we refuse to obey the civil authorities, then we are not recognizing the authority God has allowed them to have. However, obedience is conditional. You may recall Jesus words "Pay therefore Caesars things to Caesar, But Gods things to God" Matt 22:15-21 this balances just how much obedience we give to the civil authorities. If a civil authority required something of us that was contrary to Gods laws, then we must 'Obey God as ruler rather then men' Acts 5:27-29 When the religious leaders commanded that the Apostles stop preaching about Jesus, Paul said the above. So it shows that obedience is only to a point, God must be obeyed first.
purpledawn writes: These are requirements for overseers and deacons in the early churches. What makes it a legal law that people are held account to before God? notice how 'women' are included in that list....this shows that these requirements are not only for Overseers in the congregation, but for all christians in the congregation. they all were expected to abide by the laws and principles of the faith.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: 5. Matt 28:18 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations"So what is the law? Jesus gave his disciples a job. This has nothing to do with us. The disciples were supposed to teach people to obey everything Jesus had commanded them. Since the disciples didn't teach Paul, it is hard to say what the disciples taught the Jews or if they did their job. The job that Jesus gave his diciples was to make more diciples by teaching and baptizing them.All first century christians were evangelizers. Peter said at 2:21In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. Jesus was primarily a preacher. He taught people about Gods Kingdom. So a follower of Christ would also do this same work of evangelizing. The Apostles role was to teach all the disciples how to be preachers. Who are these 70 individuals that Jesus sent out preaching?
quote: So you see, it has everything to do with christians...a christian must be an evangelizer. Paul was speaking to Timothy in this letter, Timothy was not an apostle but a young disciple.
quote:
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: I'm looking for the link from God to the person who has the authority to make the new laws (not principles or standards). If that person is Jesus, then we need the link to the person(s) that Jesus gave the authority to make new laws (not principles or standards) for the followers. Link 1 = God gives Jesus authority
quote: Link 2 - Jesus gives his 12 apostles authority, at the last supper with them he said:
quote: He also told them that they would not be doing the work of preaching and teaching alone. He promised to give them holy spirit to guide and direct them.
quote: purpledawn writes: If, as you say, the Mosaic law is still God's standard (something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example) and Jesus taught that standard; then Christians should be following all those standards, not just the ones that happened to be mentioned by later writers. What about the Jewish laws that developed from the Mosaic Laws? Did Jesus also teach those standards? What evidence do you have of what Jesus did and didn't teach? Abraham, Noah and Job all lived before the Mosaic laws were given to Moses, yet these men, and others, were righteous and approved by God? It would appear that the mosaic law was not only for the purpose of making someone righteous and approved. So it cant be assumed that we must follow those laws in order to be approved in the judgement day.
purpledawn writes: To be held accountable on judgment day to laws or teachings we don't have record of is not fair and balanced.What clearly shows what we will be held accountable to on judgment day? But we do have a record of the laws that we must learn to abide by. Paul said at Acts 17:31"Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness BY A MAN WHOM HE HAS APPOINTED, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead." Jesus will judge us based on our adherence to the example he set and by the words he taught through his own teachings and those whom he appointed, the apostles.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes:
In Leviticus 19 the passage actually reads: " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord. This very clearly does not mean to be benevolent towards all mankind as yourself. It encompasses a narrow circle of people. That's the text, not me. If you keep referring to the mosaic law, then you will find that passages like this DO alienate the rest of mankind. the mosaic law served to keep the nation separate from other nations. This is why the Law of the Christ is far superior because as Jesus showed in his 'good Samaritan' parable, loving our neigbour means to show love to ALL nations...our love should not be restricted to a small group...it must be open to all without prejudice. So 'love your neigbour as yourself' IS a law of the christ. It is a far more reaching law then the mosaic law was.
purpledawn writes: John 13:34 takes place at the last supper, at the most he is speaking to the group who could fit within the room besides the 12. The commission, which only shows up in the late gospel of John, is still limited to the group in the room with Jesus at the most. Remember Jesus also supposedly said: "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." The benevolence is still in treatment of each other. Again, that's the text, not me.
You cant ignore the command to preach, teach and baptize people of ALL nations. Paul said at Acts 10:34, 35."God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him." Jesus parting words were that "You will be witnesses of me to the most distant parts of the earth" and further to that Paul told the Romans 2:28-29 "He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God."
purpledawn writes: From the scripture it is only unconditional for those who are a member of the club or believe in Christ. As I said, it is a limited group that this applies to. No its not.Gal 6:10 "Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us WORK WHAT IS GOOD TOWARD ALL, but especially toward those related to us in the faith."
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: It is irrelevant who the 70 were. You're giving authority to unknown writers. Why? if you dont believe that the books of the bible and those who wrote them did so under Gods direction, there is not much point discussing the laws of the NT. the scriptures I quote come from those writings, but you dont seem to accept those writings as authentic. I do accept those writings as authentic which is why I am using them to answer your questions. but if you dont accept those writings, then the discussion seems pointless. If you are a christian (?), how did you become such without the NT?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Hi Bailey
Bailey writes: What are the implications of classifying Paul's 'rule', 'Love your neighbor as yourself', as a principle or standard? Also, what are the implications of classifying a commandment from the Anointed One as a law? Should a commandment from the Anointed One be relegated as a standard or principle, or otherwise? laws,principles and standards are very much intertwined for example, theocratic laws are based on principles of truth. The divine law still in effect to this day forbids murder. It is based on the plain principle or fact that man is mortal. Therefore just as true principles are used to build up all the many Bible doctrines, so true principles lie behind all Gods laws.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Bailey writes: Disciples are not preachers. if you look closely at the words Jesus gave namely, "...make disciples of people of all the nations, teaching them to observe all the things that I commanded YOU..." Now if the apostles had to teach people all that Christ taught them, this must surely include the work of preaching and teaching. Jesus himself sent out many disciples preaching, so why do you say that disciples were not to be preachers???
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: The saying "Love your neighbor ..." is a good rule of thumb, which helps people to follow the laws of the land, but is not specific enough to be a law in and of itself. Why not? Is love so difficult that we cannot come to know how to apply it?
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