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Author Topic:   Between A Rock & A Hard Place
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 67 (514731)
07-11-2009 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
07-11-2009 10:06 AM


Phat writes:
I DO have problems with the Bible being inerrant (without any mistakes, errors, or human goofs) chiefly because it just doesn't make sense to me.
If you don't believe that the Bible is inerrant because it does not make sense to you, why does an admirable being that kills its own son out of anger at someone else make sense to you? What makes belief in Jesus and God more sensible than the Bible?
Phat writes:
Of course, they question Jesus divinity as well and I simply will NOT go there.
Is this because it would outstrip the scope of this thread, or because you want to avoid thinking about it to preserve your faith?
Phat writes:
The flip side of this is that I also don't believe them when they go so far as to say that religion is all man-made and that the stories are less than perfect.
If you question the inerrancy of the Bible yet maintain that the stories presented are not less than perfect, does that mean that you suspect whatever actually happened may not have been perfect? Or is it just a source of cognitive dissonance?
Phat writes:
I just know that I need to pray and allow the Holy Spirit to help me sort it all out.
How do you know this?
Edited by Phage0070, : "not"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 07-11-2009 10:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 67 (514793)
07-12-2009 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ICANT
07-12-2009 9:54 PM


Re: Re-I don't know
ICANT writes:
Phat as Jesus told Nicodumus ye must be born again.
AKA "Set aside your brain and follow me." MATTHEW 16:24 (Paraphrased)
Learn to distinguish between what you know and what you hope, and you will be much happier.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 07-12-2009 9:54 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 67 (514833)
07-13-2009 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Peg
07-13-2009 6:20 AM


Peg writes:
yes, that may be true...however its not limited to cults, its the basis of every religion when you think about it.
This is one of the reasons some argue that all religions are in essence really big and long-lived cults. It fits remarkably well.
Peg writes:
And we shouldnt strive to have relationship with him because of what we can get out of it. (not that its wrong to want something out of it) But he does add meaning, purpose and hope to ones life now...and in the future the promise of more material long lasting & permanent blessings.
So you suggest we shouldn't do what he says for what we can get out of it, but almost in the same breath mention the point of material blessings promised in the future. These concepts seem at odds. Besides, if God isn't going to give blessings now and he isn't going to give blessings later, what possible reason would there be to do what he says? If God was just giving out some helpful tips for living then what is the point of worship, praying, belief in general?
Peg writes:
I know people say that, but i've never seen a contradiction that cannot be explained.
And you generally do so by concluding that it means something at odds with what it says. If you are going to ignore the scripture anyway, why read it in the first place?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 6:20 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:55 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 67 (514859)
07-13-2009 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
07-13-2009 12:46 PM


Re: Synopsis
Phat writes:
(assuming of course that such an authority exists)
And you do assume this, arbitrarily it appears. No matter, you can explain that away through illogical, blind faith...
Phat writes:
I don't believe in blind faith.
Uhh, whaaat? You go on about stuff you believe without evidence and then say you don't believe in blind faith! Are you saying that you have proof that the Holy Spirit lives inside your body as opposed to you having a hallucination?
Phat writes:
...I still hold out belief in a supernatural God. To give that up would reduce Christianity to some humanistic do-good philosophy, which is not enough for me.
What a second Phat, have you completely lost your senses (assuming you had them before)? If Christianity is a humanistic do-good philosophy then it does not cease to be that way if you don't accept it. I can just see you clapping your hands over your ears and tightly closing your eyes chanting "La la la, I can't hear you! My God is great and powerful, and totally exists! I reject your reality and substitute my own!"
The entire standpoint that you have maintained appears to be patently insane. Your willingness to accept something has no bearing on its existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-13-2009 12:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 07-15-2009 10:23 AM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 67 (514913)
07-13-2009 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Peg
07-13-2009 9:55 PM


Peg writes:
So while i'll have to wait, im willing to do that because it will be worth the wait.
So in other words you are doing it to avoid the curse God inflicted on Adam and Eve: "Do what I say or I'll kill you (eventually, after some torture)." You are doing it PRECISELY for what you can get out of it. (Oh, and you cannot avoid the torture even though you don't deserve it.)
Peg writes:
thats a very good point. the bible should be read with the purpose of understanding 'IT'
No Peg, I said "why read it in the first place?" If you are simply going to reject those parts you don't already agree with, then you cannot gain anything from the reading that you don't already believe and accept. Besides, if "IT" is so anxious for you to learn about it then why does it not talk to you directly? That would seem to eliminate the need for a Bible in the first place, it is hard to get more convenient than on-demand telepathy. The fact that the sects cannot seem to agree puts the entire concept in a poor light from the start!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:55 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 11:07 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 67 (514919)
07-13-2009 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Peg
07-13-2009 11:07 PM


Peg writes:
God inflicted nothing on A&E. They inflicted it on themselves by choosing to be independent.
quote:
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
- Genesis 3:22-24
The serpent never lied, the tree did not kill them it did exactly what the serpent said it would. It was God who lied. Once they gained knowledge from the tree they were capable of eating from the tree of life and becoming immortal like God, and specifically to prevent this God sent them out of the garden.
God never intended humans to live forever, and he lied to prevent humans from finding out the secret and once they did he sent his lackeys with flaming swords to prevent it. God hates you and wants you to die; what is so hard to understand about that?
Peg writes:
now you're just being silly.
Yet another flawless rebuttal from Peg, how am I to counter such a retort?
Oh yes, ahem: "I know you are, but what am I?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 11:07 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 2:46 AM Phage0070 has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 67 (514934)
07-14-2009 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peg
07-14-2009 2:46 AM


Peg writes:
According to Jesus, the serpent lied. he called Satan "a liar and the the father of the Lie"
Yeah, he would, given that he or his father was the one who told the lie (the relationship there is kinda fuzzy). Seriously, if your best argument against someone lying is their word, you are not really sharp on the whole deception bit.
Peg writes:
And A&E did die, we know that for a certainty.
No, we are not really sure they ever existed in the first place. But the story tells us that God specifically prevented them from attaining eternal life which would have happened if he had not intervened, so basically God killed them. He did it because they were improving themselves and were going to become like gods, and because he is a jealous god he could have no competition. So basically he killed Adam and Eve out of jealousy.
Peg writes:
he could have just done away with A&E and Satan so he had no opposers, and no one to question him or accuse him of something that is obviously false.
Well, he did just that. He sent Adam, Eve, and Lucifer away, and the first two specifically so they would not be competition for him. He does not want them gone completely, he wants them to suffer and die for whatever reason.
If God wanted people to live forever, why would he specifically say that he did not want them to live forever and actively work against it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 2:46 AM Peg has not replied

  
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