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Author Topic:   What exactly is ID?
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 46 of 1273 (515699)
07-20-2009 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by traderdrew
07-20-2009 3:32 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Discussion about information should be taken to a thread specifically to it I think since it seems such a source of great confusion and debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by traderdrew, posted 07-20-2009 3:32 PM traderdrew has replied

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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 47 of 1273 (515700)
07-20-2009 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Son
07-20-2009 4:06 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Sorry about that. I will not do it again here. I was thinking of taking their posts and pasteing them in a thread below where we could have a big fight, but then again...
Apparently the "complex specified information" that I post on this forum isn't always specific. If it was repesented as an analogue in DNA it would probably fail to communicate the information.

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 Message 46 by Son, posted 07-20-2009 4:06 PM Son has not replied

Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 48 of 1273 (515701)
07-20-2009 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by traderdrew
07-20-2009 2:01 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
I think I didn't make my intentions very clear but if I asked all those questions, it was to have a clear picture of what ID studies. So if you could give me a summary of what you think about it, it would be nice.
Moreover it doesn't contradict Evolution and only adds one mechanism that to it so I fail to see why it's a rival theory to Evolution so maybe I missed something? It also doesn't have the same scale as Evolution, if true, it would only be a part of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by traderdrew, posted 07-20-2009 2:01 PM traderdrew has replied

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traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 49 of 1273 (515706)
07-20-2009 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Son
07-20-2009 4:22 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
So if you could give me a summary of what you think about it, it would be nice.
I would have to think about this if you would want an explanation that is a bit longer than the one I modified off wikipedia below. I am leaving town for a little while.
Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by the involvement of (at least one) intelligence.
Moreover it doesn't contradict Evolution and only adds one mechanism that to it so I fail to see why it's a rival theory to Evolution so maybe I missed something?
I think some people reject it because of its religious implications and/or they are not thinking rationally about their demarcation argument. I think the first reason would explain the second.
It also doesn't have the same scale as Evolution, if true, it would only be a part of it.
I believe it has the same scale as the evidence of the fossil record would tell us. There are periods in the fossil record that show us some patterns that suggest design. Such as the hypothesis of an infusion of information into organisms during the Cambrian era. An example might be the introduction of lysyl oxidase into organisms. (If I didn't post this last sentence, you would see someone who would attempt to equivocate my last comment or spin off of it with an off topic post.)
Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 54 by Luweewu, posted 10-07-2009 12:02 AM traderdrew has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 50 of 1273 (515707)
07-20-2009 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by traderdrew
07-20-2009 3:32 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
quote:
If you know of one then post it and I will study it.
I told you that there aren't any known examples, so how can I show you one ?
So I am going to ask again. Before you ask for evidence that CSI can evolve, wouldn't it be a good idea to find an example of CSI in biology ? There's no need to account for something that doesn't exist.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 51 of 1273 (515719)
07-20-2009 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by traderdrew
07-20-2009 4:39 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by the involvement of (at least one) intelligence.
You are correct--intelligent design is an assertion. That assertion is based on a religious belief, or a world view stemming from a religious belief.
Intelligent design is not a scientific field, as there is nothing to investigate--the conclusion is already known! There is no way to move from a dataset to empirical knowledge because that concluding "empirical knowledge" has already been asserted. And further, nothing that contradicts that conclusion will be entertained. All of these are the antithesis of science, but characteristic of religious apologetics.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Luweewu
Junior Member (Idle past 5286 days)
Posts: 8
From: Aus
Joined: 10-06-2009


Message 52 of 1273 (528762)
10-06-2009 9:43 PM


40 years in the thinking
Greetings
Intelligent design is to me fundamental in the understanding of reality.
Why ?
Questions that are orphaned by randomness or 'creationism'
are answered by it.
How can creationism be orphaned by ID? Simple.
The laws.
Religious creationism requires laws to be 'worked within' by a god of that religion. Gods of religion can create worlds. But not worlds that that do not maintain their structure without the laws.
Where do the laws come from.?
They have always existed.. no?
But, If bang theory is correct. They came to be ballanced and true.
Ready to produce an 'evolutionary' crop of stars that would result in life and anti-entropic complex systems.
Such ballance does not just 'appear from nowhere' [does it evolve?]
Einstien said imagination is a far more powerfull tool in understanding reality than intelligence.
I will use it..
Reality, the observed universe, seems a thing designed with a set of laws. Those laws we know the effect of but not the cause.
Gravity and space are still mystery. As is the plastic nature of time as revealed by special relativity.
We know very little and thus it is hard to encompass the nature of our reality in mind..
I try. I hope you do as well.. this is why we are here.
Luwee
---------edit
The 40 years of thinking simply means i have found more interesting questions than what burger tastes best.
Edited by Luweewu, : No reason given.
Edited by Luweewu, : No reason given.

Luweewu
Junior Member (Idle past 5286 days)
Posts: 8
From: Aus
Joined: 10-06-2009


Message 53 of 1273 (528792)
10-07-2009 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Coyote
07-20-2009 6:47 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Coyote
Assertion based of religious belief? false premis.
You assume that ID is based only in the lowest form of fiction.
Why? [i know well why as do you. We as human beings cannot fail, to wish one thing, purpose. Even though it is a creation of manipulators. They are good at their craft.]
Understand.. my 'bar of belief is ruthless' I do not gain empirical knowledge from the 'one book' But from experience of the one reality i exist in, and process through the machinery of mind i have made. This is what 'empirical' means.
All the best
Luwee
Edited by Luweewu, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Luweewu
Junior Member (Idle past 5286 days)
Posts: 8
From: Aus
Joined: 10-06-2009


Message 54 of 1273 (528794)
10-07-2009 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by traderdrew
07-20-2009 4:39 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Trader
Fossils?
What have fossils to do with the structure of reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by traderdrew, posted 07-20-2009 4:39 PM traderdrew has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 55 of 1273 (528801)
10-07-2009 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Luweewu
10-07-2009 12:00 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Assertion based of religious belief? false premis.
Actually that is based on careful observation. ID is not science. It is not taught in science classes in the universities--except in religious institutions. It is supported almost entirely by creationist websites, many of which are only thinly disguised, and by creationists "scientists" who are just pretending to do science. ID has been found to be religion by a Federal District Court (Dover). The "cdesign proponentsists" editing of The Panda's Thumb is the smoking gun. Source
You assume that ID is based only in the lowest form of fiction.
No, I assume--with a lot of evidence--that it is based on religious belief, and is being disguised in a dishonest attempt to sneak religion back into the schools under the mantle of "science."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Luweewu, posted 10-07-2009 12:00 AM Luweewu has replied

Replies to this message:
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Luweewu
Junior Member (Idle past 5286 days)
Posts: 8
From: Aus
Joined: 10-06-2009


Message 56 of 1273 (528809)
10-07-2009 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Coyote
10-07-2009 12:32 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Coyote
I cannot agree.
I suggest ID is to you a way of discrediting a fiction called religion.
And in the doing the really interesting stuff is thrown out with the dishwater.
I understand well this stance.
How do we live with the idiocy of the "i want it to be so"
Luwee
----edit
Science cannot even desribe time dilation to kids in school. When they would best understand this 'science'. Few even know what science means. I taught my child everything i knew at the time..
She is now a child psychologist..lol
Edited by Luweewu, : science

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 57 of 1273 (528821)
10-07-2009 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Luweewu
10-07-2009 12:52 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Science cannot even desribe time dilation to kids in school.
But that is a subject for higher education for that very reason.
ABE: welcome to EvC!
Edited by Larni, : Welcome

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Luweewu, posted 10-07-2009 12:52 AM Luweewu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Luweewu, posted 10-07-2009 6:35 AM Larni has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 58 of 1273 (528828)
10-07-2009 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by traderdrew
07-20-2009 3:32 PM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
If you know of one then post it and I will study it.
Someone debating you ... says that there are no examples of a certain thing ... and you reply by asking him to provide an example ... of the thing that he says doesn't exist.
This is ... odd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by traderdrew, posted 07-20-2009 3:32 PM traderdrew has replied

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Luweewu
Junior Member (Idle past 5286 days)
Posts: 8
From: Aus
Joined: 10-06-2009


Message 59 of 1273 (528831)
10-07-2009 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Larni
10-07-2009 4:18 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Larni
Thanks. And yes it is. I hope there is not too much 'specialisation'
After all, one of our biggest snafu's is putting things in boxes.
I describe myself as a specialising non-specialist.
You cant talk about sysytem X without including system Y.
Everything is connection.
Luwee
------edit
think of the vienna circle , can you imagine Carnap telling Godel to keep 'on topic'
------edit
Higher? my daughter @10 understood it.
Edited by Luweewu, : clarification
Edited by Luweewu, : ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Larni, posted 10-07-2009 4:18 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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Luweewu
Junior Member (Idle past 5286 days)
Posts: 8
From: Aus
Joined: 10-06-2009


Message 60 of 1273 (528833)
10-07-2009 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Coyote
10-07-2009 12:32 AM


Re: What is Intelligent Design?
Coyote
I was not putting you down brother.. I agree.
Religion and it's 'ways' are limmited at best and true evil at it;s worst, As is any human creed.
We live in a new rennaisance, and that means we dont know what the ****
is going on.
Now. The thread is ID. Time to get back to that topic
Edited by Luweewu, : Back on topic

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