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Author Topic:   Evolution and Increased Diversity
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
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Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 99 of 140 (439205)
12-07-2007 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by New Cat's Eye
12-07-2007 11:56 AM


Re: The tautology of tautology
It doesn't negate the trend. It negates that the trend must happen.
Well put. That's the post hoc in a nutshell.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 101 of 140 (439259)
12-07-2007 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by JB1740
12-06-2007 8:53 AM


Re: random events
Neither would floods probably be. Nor volcanoes. Changes in climate aren't random either.
Floods, if they are seasonal, would then be a seasonal change.
They are random in the sense that they are not regular and the time scale involved is greater than that of organisms to such a degree that they have no mechanism to adapt. The result is the same as stochastic events.
The effect is also more based on who got lucky to not be in the wrong place at the wrong time rather than being able to survive better than others in the same situation. Thus the selection involved would not depend on the hereditary traits of the survivors, and what selection occurred of hereditary traits would be due to genetic drift.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : finished

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 103 of 140 (439403)
12-08-2007 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Elmer
12-07-2007 8:15 PM


variation, selection, adaptation and diversity
I'm not sure just what it is that you say that "the ToE" says. I was responding to your claim that "natural selection" can, [and presumably, does],account for fluctuations in the amount of biodiversity, both positive and negative, in not only circumscribed localities/ecosystems, but even in the biosphere as a whole, and in both the long and short term. As per your affirmative response to my question.
In short, you are saying that 'natural selection' causes fluctuations in biodiversity, (both increases and decreases), and not just locally, but globally, as well.
That's quite a sweeping claim, and all I've asked you to do is to back that claim with empirical evidence, and sound reasoning from that evidence.
We were talking about the theory of evolution, not only the mechanism of natural selection. The theory of evolution can be stated simple as the theory that evolution -- the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation -- is sufficient to explain the diversity of life as we know it in the present, in history, in the fossil record and as we know it in the genetic record.
That may seem like a sweeping claim, but that is what science does: science makes sweeping claims all the time -- it tries to understand the universe, after all.
The empirical evidence is all those facts we know about the diversity of life - life as we know it in the present, in history, in the fossil record and as we know it in the genetic record.
The sound reasoning based on that evidence is the whole field of biological science, including evolutionary biology. Natural selection is one of the mechanisms that is studied in this process.
Now, I simply do not see how you can do that without clearly defining 'natural selection' as a causal agency, a natural (i.e., empirical) force, similar to gravity, etc., a physical, universal, scientific, discernible and describable mechanism.
Fortunately nature is not limited by your understanding.
Not as an observed empirical effect of some other cause, force, mechanism or assortment of mechanisms and/or unrelated events, nor as a catch-all metaphor for such indescriminate, indeterminate unknowns. Most importantly, I would like to hear how it can be that such a force, cause, universal mechanism can _increase_ biodiversity, rather than just decrease or stabilize it.
By selecting for increased hereditary variation and speciation. Mutation introduces new alleles, hereditary traits, into populations. This is increased biodiversity. Natural selection can select for these to be spread into the population, or it can select to suppress them. Mixing allele between subpopulations means more mixed traits, more diversity, than existed in either subpopulation alone.
From what I know of 'natural selection', it simply cannot increase biodiversity; Fisher's "random, genetic mutation" is supposed, by neo-darwinists, to be the cause, force, mechanism that does that job. Except that 'random accident', "chance", "luck", "coincidence", "happenstance", being irregular and unpredictable, can never be called, nor called upon to replace, a 'force' or a 'mechanism', in terms applicable to scientific explanation for observed phenomena. Such as evolution and increased biological variation and complexity [biodiversity].
Fortunately nature is not limited by your understanding.
According to the ToE, if the environment is favorable for a trait,
that trait will become more prominent.
That is not a theory; that is a tautological statement of a brute fact, a truism. It's no more scientific than the observation that rain tends to fall from cloudy, rather than cloudless skies. Therefpore a rtrait, [rain], will become "more prominent" depending upon the degree of cloud cover. It's true, but it isn't a truth that can be elevated to the status of 'scientific insight' or 'universal principle of science', or anything so edifying as all that. In short, your statement, as it stands, is meaningless.
However the trait (rain) will not persist beyond the environment (cloud) unlike the traits we are talking about. You are confusing strict cause (cloud) and effect (rain) , the rain will cease to exist once the clouds cease to exist, however the hereditary trait will still exist in a population after the environment changes. Nor do hereditary traits have to be passed on - generally they will be, but it is not necessary: stochastic events can eliminate new traits no matter how favorable they are.
What I hear you saying is that "NS" does not generate biodiversity, but causes particular bioforms to expand numerically. Now, my understanding of biodiversity says that the term has only to do with the numbers of different bioforms, and has nothing to do with the number of individuals belonging to a particular bioform. Therefore your "RM" still has nothing at all to do with biodiversity. Show me where I'm wrong.
By selecting for different variations of subpopulations of a species to live in different habitats and by selecting mutations to adapt to those different habitats, selections that would not necessarily occur in the original habitat..
Whether variation "gets passed on or not" has nothing to do with whether or not biodiversity increases, although it might be said to have something to do with whether or not it decreases. When a novel bioform, evern a single individual, comes into existence, then biodiversity may be said to have increased. So long as a single individual example of that bioform exists, it does not effect the sum of biodiversity. When the the last extant individual dies, that bioform goes extinct, and by so doing decreases biodiversity. In between its coming into existence and its extinction, that bioform does not alter the sum of biodiversity in the biosphere.
But variations ARE biodiversity. And yes every individual organism is a novel organism ("bioform") even though they share many traits with other individuals, each individual cannot have more than two variation forms (alleles) of a specific gene, so adding a new allele increases the biodiversity of a population. Selecting for that new allele to be shared with all the other alleles of all the other traits in different combinations also increases the biodiversity of the population without any new(er) mutations needed. Selection can also operate to keep a new allele from being passed on, so it can work to increase or decrease diversity.
If a change in something is determined, predetermined, predestined, inevitable, inflexible, and mechanical, [see water freezing, melting, flowing, boiling, steaming, etc.], then in what sense can it be called 'adaptive', that is, 'able to adapt', where 'to adapt' means something more than simply 'to change/to be changed'?!?
Seeing as none of those processes apply to adaptations of life forms your point is irrelevant.
Of course, if you wish to reduce 'to adapt' to a simple synonym for 'to change', as opposed to being a particular kind of change, I won't try to stop you, but that misses the point. WRT bioforms, 'to adapt' means to dynamically 'make suitable to or consistent with a particular situation or use'
Not really - it means that variations that make organisms even slightly better adapted for an environment will be preferentially selected over those who are just slightly less adapted for an environment. Each generation is selected for all individuals with better combinations of hereditary traits because they are better adapted to the environment, but the individuals are not changed - "made suitable" - by the environment. Individuals do not evolve, they live, die and reproduce, and those in each generation that are better adapted to an environment have an easier time living and reproducing and have more opportunity to succeed.
Since that implies teleology, how do you reconcile that teleology with your determinism, without admitting to a belief that the entire universe is "teleologically determined", as opposed to "mechanically determined"? I don't think that you want to go there, do you?
Since your argument is false, it is irrelevant.
Can you explain why causation is even necessary? What do we observe that suggests some causative factor?
It isn't, unless you are a scientist-- or someone who wants to understand reality.
It is one thing to study causation when there is a "trendency" that implies a cause and effect relationship, it is another to claim a cause and effect from an unrelated "trendency" - which is the case here between evolution of species, varieties and life in general, and the "trendency" of biodiversity to increase or decrease over time.
Let me put it this way: the mechanism or process of evolution does not change with the changes in diversity, either to increase it or decrease it.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 105 of 140 (439445)
12-08-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Fosdick
12-08-2007 8:02 PM


Re: Cope's rule and the random-walk principle
But forams dispel this apparent relationship:
Geology Dept article 3
quote:
One of the findings already is being described -- perhaps too hastily -- as disproving Cope's Rule, so named for it's synthesis by the American paleontologist Edward Drinker Cope (1840-97). The time-honored evolutionary principle basically holds that all animal groups tend to start out small and increase in size over time.
"We've found out that apparently, lineages don't exactly work that way," Arnold said. "Many of the forams start out small, and essentially stay that way until extinction. Others do manage to wander into dramatically larger sizes, but they're the rare ones."
But the find doesn't necessarily contradict what Cope said, only what many scientists think he said, says Parker. "Cope's observation was simply that there are a few extremely large examples (of individuals) in any given lineage, and these examples always occur at the later stages of the organism's development. And that's apparently true.
"But our findings show that the vast majority of forams start small and end small, even though the mean size increases somewhat due to a few very large specimens. As you get more and more species evolving, some of them eventually manage to get moderately to very large, but most of them don't increase in size at all."
So what you are seeing is a trend that does not need to occur -- very much like diversity.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 107 of 140 (439582)
12-09-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Elmer
12-08-2007 10:17 PM


true understanding is the key eh?
By "the" theory of evolution I take you to mean Ronald Fisher's notional amalgam of population statistics, genetic inheritance mechanisms with Darwin's anthropomorphic metaphor for differential mortality, "Natural Selection". Often referred to as 'neo-darwinism, 'darwinism', 'the 'modern synthesis', and 'modern evolutionary biology', when including Sewall Wright's "drift" [i.e, random genetic mutationm without natural selection],theory, [later expanded by Motoo Kimura as "neutral theory"] and sometimes referred to as 'molecular biology' and 'biochemistry'. Am I right?
Partly. We had a thread on what the definition of “the theory of evolution” was - see The Definition for the Theory of Evolution and the conclusion at Message 158 was:
True, but we now have a sort of hierarchy of brevity vs precision:
(1) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time.
(2) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected.
(3) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, due to the available variations (diversity) within populations from the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected, due to the differential response of organisms under prevailing ecological pressures to their individual development, their ability to pass on hereditary traits to the next generation, and their opportunities to disperse into other ecological habitats.
(4) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes:
  • theories on how change is enabled
    ...(list of theories on different mechanisms for the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits within populations)
  • theories on how changes made within each generation are selected
    ...(list of theories on different mechanisms of selection and where and when they operate)
    ... etc
Now it may be interesting to flesh out #4 with the lists of theories from natural selection to genetic drift to punk-eek to runaway sexual selection ... etc.
As you can see this includes what you mentioned, but it includes many other theories as well.
Another way you can define the “theory of evolution” is that the processes and mechanism of evolution - the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation - is sufficient to explain the diversity and record of life we see today, in history, in the fossil record and in the genetic evidence.
Both of these statements show that the “theory of evolution” includes many parts, parts that individually are susceptible to being falsified and replaced with new parts, and subject to the addition of new parts, new concepts for how evolution - the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation - occurs, and in some cases with a specific applicability instead of a general applicability.
I will suppose that I am, and so I can say that I am familiar with that hypothesis, although I view it as a highly dubious proposition.
Fortunately nature is not limited by your understanding of, or your familiarity with, all of the processes and mechanisms involved in evolution. Or mine.
Simply put, it asserts, and I refuse to believe, that extremely complex and highly productive self-directed [autopoietic] systems can arise and become reconfigured [evolve over time] via a mindless chain of anomalous but happy accidents, each event relative and dependent upon local circumstances,-- i.e., 'chance'.
Where “it” is your understanding of the theory of evolution, rather than reality. If you find the result impossible, then you should consider that what could be a fault is your understanding of evolution and not what evolution really involves. This is true for everyone.
Your refusal to believe is just an argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy, and there are many things that are hard to fully understand and accept even though they are facts.
How does that imply teleology?
Acting with a view to a more or less definite end is what the word 'teleology' means. Anything chance-based, random, stochastic, aimless, undirected, and unintentional is not teleological. And unless a mechanically determined series of events has been intentionally put in motion with a view to a more or less definite end, it is not teleological either.
tel·e·ol·o·gy -noun 1. The study of design or purpose in natural phenomena.
2. The use of ultimate purpose or design as a means of explaining phenomena.
3. Belief in or the perception of purposeful development toward an end, as in nature or history.
(American Heritage Dictionary, 2007)
So we'll use definition #2.
However, if a mechanically determined process has been put in place with a view to an at least broadly preconceived, more or less intended outcome, then that mechanically determined chain of events is teleological.
So if you assume a teleological process - the purposeful putting in place of a mechanically determined process etc, then you are able to deduct that a purposeful mechanism has been put in place? Isn't that the logical fallacy of begging the question?
Which, BTW, makes any 'adaptationist' theory of evolution, including Darwin's,"NS", into a teleological process, but makes any purely chance-based process, such as Fisher et al's, "Random Genetic Mutation", into an ateleological process. Essentially, 'fisherism' [i.e., 'the modern synthesis'] is a highly successful coup d'etat that changed Darwin's theory of teleological evolution into a 'value-free' theory of ateleological evolution.
Sure, when you create a straw man argument based on begging the question. You can prove anything with that kind of argument.
What if the process evolves by chance: is it still teleological?
Then if we test for evidence of a “more or less intended outcome” - by looking, not at the overall trends, but at the whole process that sometimes goes one way and sometimes goes another way, and sometimes result in one direction and sometimes goes in another - and it doesn't show any evidence of direction or purpose, can we assume that there is a direction, a purpose?
If both are true - and they are - don't they necessarily and totally invalidate your point, your assumption, your view based on your understanding of evolution? Doesn't this invalidate your understanding of evolution?
What I meant was that 'causation' is necessary to any understanding of anything, and that to discuss anything without reference to causation is pretty much a useless waste of time.
Except where causation is erroneously assumed. That too is a waste of time.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : subtitle

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 119 of 140 (440239)
12-12-2007 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Elmer
12-11-2007 12:08 PM


Proving diversity can increase by selection
This analogy of 'natural selection' to a dice game of some kind is a common approach, and so merits analysis. But let us not lose sight of the fact that we are discussing 'natural selection' in terms of biodiversity, i.e., increased or decreased numbers of variants of different bioforms across the entire spetrum of the biosphere, or in any designated portion [ecosystem] in that global biosphere. Therefore any valid analogy between dice and the biodiversity of the globe or of any given ecosystem must be directly related to a comparison of 'biodiversity' to a 'die'.
It's fairly common, but it only represents a very simplified picture of the whole phenotype - one trait, as opposed to the whole mix of traits in every organism.
The first thing we notice is the assumption that if biodiversity is analogous to a die, then biodiversity can never increase. Why not? Because with a 'die' what you start out with is a numbered six-sided object, a cube.
I agree the analogy is flawed for that reason, it's really only intended to show how selection works, not how that selection increases diversity. It's also flawed and limited in only selecting one (1) trait.
Don't you see? You are now attributing increased biodiversity to random [supposedly] genetic mutation, and have entirely dropped 'ns' as the source/origin of novelty, i.e., increased biodiversity. After your 'random genetic mutation' supposedly increases the amount biodiversity present, your 'ns' , [whatever it is supposed to be, empirically-speaking(?!?)], merely limits, constrains, and reduces the amount of biodiversity that persists over time.
Not really. The mutation is what first introduces a new variation on a theme into the mix, agreed, and it is random, agreed, but that is not the full picture.
Without selection it doesn't make it to the next generation, so it then adds a (+1 organism +1 generation) amount of diversity which is then gone with the next generation, a net zero position.
For it to continue in the population from generation to generation it must not only be there to be selected, it must be actually selected, ie - when the parent organism passes the new trait on to its offspring it is because the trait (mixed in the phenotype of the parent) is selected to have offspring. With every offspring then this singular mutation adds another (+1 organism +1 generation) amount of diversity and keeps the overall total from returning to the net zero position
So positive selection is necessary to maintain a +1 unit of diversity, while negative selection can remove it (and return to a net zero position, not an overall decrease - for any new mutation).
But that is not all selection does, because there are more traits involved (and they don't all operate independently). Let's take the simple model and add another level of complexity to reflect this relationship to other traits (alleles, forms of a gene).
Let's say there were two traits (alleles) before, A and B, and the organisms, having two strands of DNA, one from each parent, could have either of the following combinations: AA, AB, BB, BA. This results in 3 basic combinations in 25%, 50% and 25% probabilities in the offspring.
Now we add trait (allele) C into the mix, positively select for it so that it is now passed on to the next generations, mixing with AA, AB, and BB types to result in AA, AB, AC, BB, BA, BC, CC, CA, CB combinations, or 6 basic combinations AA, AB, BB, AC, BC, CC.
Result: diversity has doubled. Not by the mutation, that was the last generation, but by the selection of the mutation to mix with other combinations in the second generation.
But that's not all.
Selection doesn't operate on just one gene and the various alleles for that gene in a population, it operates on the phenotype of the organisms carrying those specific gene alleles in combination with all the other gene alleles for all the features that make up the total organism. This means that different combinations of different gene alleles make up the phenotype (which is important because it is the phenotype that is selected, not individual features: a man does not select arms from one woman, legs from another ...).
So we need to take our model up to another level of complexity to better represent reality. Let's assume we have:
  • feature 1 with say 4 alleles (10 combination),
  • feature 2 with 5 alleles (15 combinations),
  • feature 3 with 2 alleles (3 combinations) and
  • feature 4 with 2 alleles (3 combinations) that have now been increased to 3 alleles (6 combinations) per the above.
Before the mutation was introduced into the population the total diversity possible for all the combinations of those different combinations of alleles for those different features was
10 x 15 x 3 x 3 = 1350 possible phenotypes
Now it is
10 x 15 x 3 x 6 = 2700 possible phenotypes
Those increased numbers of possible phenotypes is not due to the introduction of the mutation into one organism in a population but ONLY to the selection of that new trait to mix with other existing traits in the population.
Therefore selection can cause an increase in diversity.
QED.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clarity

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 121 of 140 (440274)
12-12-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by New Cat's Eye
12-12-2007 11:56 AM


some notes
To add to what you said.
What I have said is that you are confusing increased biodiversity [an increase in the number of taxa ] with population expansion [an increase in the number of individuals within the same taxon].
I guess I can see how you might think that, but I am not confusing those things.
We (I, author of the thread) are not talking only about the creation of new taxons or just "biodiversity" as narrowly (re)defined by Elmer, but about the full range of diversity within biological systems, from the spreading of a new allele within a population to the formation of varieties and subspecies (all the various "breeds" and "mongrels" of dogs for instance), to speciation and later divergence:
Biodiversity - Wikipedia
quote:
The most straightforward definition is "variation of life at all levels of biological organization".[3] A second definition holds that biodiversity is a measure of the relative diversity among organisms present in different ecosystems. "Diversity" in this definition includes diversity within a species and among species, and comparative diversity among ecosystems.
A third definition that is often used by ecologists is the "totality of genes, species, and ecosystems of a region". An advantage of this definition is that it seems to describe most circumstances and present a unified view of the traditional three levels at which biodiversity has been identified:
  • genetic diversity - diversity of genes within a species. There is a genetic variability among the populations and the individuals of the same species. (See also population genetics.)
  • species diversity - diversity among species in an ecosystem. "Biodiversity hotspots" are excellent examples of species diversity.
  • ecosystem diversity - diversity at a higher level of organization, the ecosystem. To do with the variety of ecosystems on Earth.

None of those match Elmer's narrow definition.
So basically the question boils down to: How can biodiversity increase when the selective factor can only removing unacceptable traits?
I think it would be better phrased this way:--How can biodiversity increase where the causal factor to which the increase is attributed [ns] is only capable of removing traits from the total number of presently existing biodiverse traits.
You have to have more alleles being introduced to the population, by RM, than there are being removed from the population, by NS.
There is a lot more to it than that. Selection is what mixes different variations of some traits with different variations in other traits - mixing that is not done by random mutation at all - that only occur in a single mix. (See Message 119). This mixing is what makes different phenotypes, and selection operates on phenotypes, the whole individual, not on individual mutations.
In this way selection produces novelty - novel mixes of genes once novel genes are added to the population.
Getting back to Elmer's narrow restrictive redefinition of "biodiversity," the generation of new taxons, is accomplished by speciation, which is the division of a population from one where all individuals (theoretically) were (capable of) interbreeding into two daughter populations, where all individuals (theoretically) were (capable of) interbreeding within each new population, but no longer interbreed between the two daughter populations.
That is caused by natural selection: the failure to breed is a selection process.
Subsequent diversion (additional difference) between the daughter population occurs over time as they accumulate different variations within their populations and undergo more speciation events.
To say that even this narrow restrictive (re)definition of biodiversity does not occur by increased diversity within populations.
There is no "magic mutation" that makes whole new species or kinds types of species.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clarity
Edited by RAZD, : sp

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 126 of 140 (440549)
12-13-2007 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Elmer
12-12-2007 4:11 PM


once more -- natural selection CAN increase diversity
Right away I have to stop you. Let's agree that to take the English language seriously, and not get lost in "Wonderland" with the likes of Humpty Dumpty. To be specific, in English,(and I supect any other earthly language), anything that is "greater than" something else is never "equal" to it.
Curiously that does not strike me as a good example of english.
Excuse me, but you seem to be forgetting that we were discussing "natural selection", not "random genetic mutation".
Exactly, and in that discussion we are discussing how natural selection actively selects some alleles in a population over others, and in the process mixes the alleles that are there, the old ones and the new ones. In the process natural selection makes new combinations that did not exist before even though it does not originate a single allele.
This is because the process is not just “subtraction” or “addition” but a multidimensional interaction that can easily multiply (literally, in both senses).
... and so can only decrease biodiversity, and never increase it.
Absolutely false, as demonstrated in Message 119 which you have ignored. Facts don't change because you ignore them.
Natural selection can also be seen as injecting an ecological factor into the process, one that mutation cannot do, but that becomes a part of the genotype of the individual just as much as a mutation does, and in this sense it does add to the overall evolution of species over time.
Hold on. Now you are saying that each new organism constitutes a brand new bioform. Technically, since no two organisms are ever exactly alike, that may be true. But it is useless and unenlightening. The whole point of biodiversity is that some bioforms are essentially different from other bioforms.
Actually that would be using the scientific definition of biodiversity instead of yours. Technically, since no two organisms are ever exactly alike, that IS true. The whole point about biodiversity is to consider ALL the diversity not just a subset of it.
Taxonomy is founded upon degrees of 'sameness' and 'difference', and distinctions between basic, fundamental, essential, invariable, constant properties, and accidental, non-essential, variable, inconstant properties. It's a problem that goes back at least as far as Aristotle and haunts taxonomy to this very day.
But we are talking about biodiversity, not taxonomy.
To admit of every trivial difference between individuals is to render 'biodiversity' meaningless.
False, still false. Repeating yourself doesn't make it true. Again, from wikipedia:
BiodiversityDefinitions
The most straightforward definition is "variation of life at all levels of biological organization".[3] A second definition holds that biodiversity is a measure of the relative diversity among organisms present in different ecosystems. "Diversity" in this definition includes diversity within a species and among species, and comparative diversity among ecosystems.
A third definition that is often used by ecologists is the "totality of genes, species, and ecosystems of a region". An advantage of this definition is that it seems to describe most circumstances and present a unified view of the traditional three levels at which biodiversity has been identified:
  • genetic diversity - diversity of genes within a species. There is a genetic variability among the populations and the individuals of the same species. (See also population genetics.)
  • species diversity - diversity among species in an ecosystem. "Biodiversity hotspots" are excellent examples of species diversity.
  • ecosystem diversity - diversity at a higher level of organization, the ecosystem. To do with the variety of ecosystems on Earth.
(Wikipedia, 2007)
Notice the part I have highlighted.
What's "speciation event", in your opinion, and what does "NS" have to do with it?
Speciation is when daughter populations no longer interbreed, because they don't or can't select individuals from the other population as mates. Natural selection causes speciation. Speciation is a definite increase in biodiversity (see 2nd bullet above).
Thus you are wrong and the rest of your post is irrelevant. You do waste a lot of time going on about your opinion.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Elmer, posted 12-12-2007 4:11 PM Elmer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by MartinV, posted 12-14-2007 11:39 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 129 of 140 (440841)
12-14-2007 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by MartinV
12-14-2007 11:39 AM


Re: once more -- natural selection CAN increase diversity
... how many possible genotypes/phenotypes mice could have? Using your inetresting maths it will be: 3 to the 1500 = 4.8 e+715. I am afraid there are not so many electrons and atoms in the Universe that there are possible phenotypes of mice.
Exactly. Now ask yourself how much natural selection plays a role in which ones are formed from the phenotypes that exist. Thanks.
Enjoy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by MartinV, posted 12-14-2007 11:39 AM MartinV has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 140 of 140 (515730)
07-20-2009 7:50 PM


Bump for interrelation
interrelation in Message 1 of Is natural selection enough to explain asks
Is natural selection enough to explain ...
... the complexities and diversities of life on earth?
Natural selection alone, no. Evolution in general, yes.
See Message 1 for more detail.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : esig

we are limited in our ability to understand
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... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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