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Author Topic:   Have complex human-made things been designed?
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 64 of 85 (516287)
07-24-2009 1:12 PM


quote:
The idea that living organisms were designed comes from a common belief that complex human-made things have been designed. But is this correct?
The observations would seem to confirm this statement.
quote:
Let's see examples of the most complex human-made things like: modern Nokia mobile phone, Boing 747 airplane, Windows-XP operating system, and let's asks the following question: have these very complex systems been designed?
It seems they were. All observation points to human intelligence designing those objects.
quote:
It is not easy to trace the history of living organisms emerging on earth and to prove if they were designed or evolved, as it is not possible to find all the required evidences.
But for the human-made things the history of their emergence is well known.
Obviously that's true.
quote:
If one looks at the history of the above mentioned human-made complex things, it becomes obvious that all of them have been evolved.
Actually, none have been evolved in the sense you are thinking of.
quote:
Airplanes, mobile phones, computer products have been evolved step-by-step, by trial-and-error method.
With or without an intelligent input? With an anitelligent input, obviously. That is why they are called designed. The mechanism of how they were actually designed is irrelevant. But they did infact come about by directed intelligent cause. Not an undirected natural cause, like people assert that is evolution.
quote:
No single human and even not a huge group of humans is able of designing a complex thing that never have existed before.
But they are able to design. And natural processes are not. That's the point.
quote:
Any complex thing appears upon a base of another complex things that already exist.
Yes, with a constant input form an intelligent source. Not an undirected natural source. Again, that is the point.
quote:
The most intelligent persons like Leonardo Da Vinchi, Newton or Aristotle could never have designed an airplane, a mobile phone or a computer program.
But they did design other thing.
quote:
And Bill Gates with his team could not have designed Windows XP in 1981, when they created DOS.
But they did eventually design XP and Vista, and soon, Windows 7. Nature has never been observed to come close to that.
quote:
And not because of the short of intelligence or small amount of people. In order to appear, Windows XP required a long series of steps, where the product of each step had to be checked by the environment: the market.
Actually it was the intelligence of the programmers who built Windows XP. You are going of track here. The availability and profit-gain of a program has nothing to do with human ability to make one. If the market is not ready for some piece of software, it's not going to be made. But that doesn't mean it can't be made. On the other hand, there were no observations of nature ever doing anything as complex as Windows XP.
quote:
Lots of computer programs improved by small changes, then were exposed to the market and those which survived became a basis for the future programs.
Again, this has nothing to do with intelligence's abillity to actualy make the program. This has more to do with profits. Is the program profitable or not. If it is, it's going to be released, if not, than it's not going to be released. This has nothing to do with undirected natural processes making complex objects like Windows XP.
quote:
This is the only way that could allow Windows XP to appear.
Yes, through an effor of a lot of intelligent sources, i.e. people.
quote:
All inventions in the world are actually very small steps based on something that already exists.
Again, yes, and the next invention is the improvemnet of the previous one by an intelligent input. Not an unintelligent one.
quote:
No invention can create something much more complex than currently existing.
Depends on what you mean by "much more complex".
quote:
So the conclusion is that all human-made complex things have been evolved and not designed.
Depends on how you define evolved, and designed. If by evolved you mean undirected nautral cause, than no, you are obviously wrong. If by evolved you mean sligh intelligent inouts over time, that yes, you are right. But int that case, that is also the definition of a designed object. Regardless of the mechanism that brought it about.
quote:
And if it is true from human-made complex things - why should it be wrong for the natural complex things (the living organisms)?
Exactly, seems, they were all designed. The only thing we don't know is by which mechanism and how long did it take. But they were designed.

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Simonster, posted 07-27-2009 4:05 AM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 66 of 85 (518068)
08-03-2009 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Simonster
07-27-2009 4:05 AM


quote:
I think this is the equivalent of natural selection. Without natural selection evolution wouldn't make much progress.
It is the same with market selection, if every product could be sold, there wouldn't be much incentive to make a better one (see communism).
But in the case of market, the product's lifespan is guided by an intelligence of consumers. In nature, no intelligence is guiding natural selection.
quote:
So while there are completely different mechanisms at work and a different goal, the result (change of products or organisms over time) is the same. So a natural explanation (the ToE) explains what we see without the need for a designer.
It doesnt' since natural selection is not guided by an intelligence. And if it is not, it can't perform any better than blind chance. It's useless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Simonster, posted 07-27-2009 4:05 AM Simonster has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Coyote, posted 08-03-2009 11:27 PM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 68 of 85 (518096)
08-04-2009 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Coyote
08-03-2009 11:27 PM


Re: Useless, eh?
quote:
Useless, eh?
OK, here is the challenge--roll 25 dice and get all sixes from them.
Your approach seems to require rolling all 25 dice over and over again until they all come up sixes. You'll be there for years.
Another approach, and that followed by natural selection, is to roll the dice and then re-roll only those that are not sixes. You'll be done in a couple of minutes.
This is analogous to natural selection as in each generation (each roll of the dice) those that don't measure up are eliminated, while those that are adequate survive.
Doesn't sound that useless to me, eh?
That's a great way to get there I agree. The only problem is that natural selection is not working that way. I mean, it is, but for fitness. It selects this way for fitness. But fitness is not correlated with biological functions. Therefore natural selection is not selecting single nucleotides and building new biological functions, it's is selecting for fitness.
Therefore natural selection is still useless for evolving new biological functions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Coyote, posted 08-03-2009 11:27 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2009 7:34 AM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 70 of 85 (518207)
08-04-2009 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Straggler
08-04-2009 7:34 AM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
Can you clarify as to what exactly you mean by "biological functions".
That is what proteins do in our bodies to keep us alive. For an example ATP synthase makes energy for the cell in the form of adenosine triphosphate.
quote:
Can you clarify as to exactly what you mean by "fitness"?
Here you go:
quote:
Fitness (often denoted w in population genetics models) is a central concept in evolutionary theory. It describes the capability of an individual of certain genotype to reproduce, and usually is equal to the proportion of the individual's genes in all the genes of the next generation.
Fitness - Wikipedia(biology)
quote:
Bearing in mind the clarifications above what exactly do you mean by this?
It means that just becasue natural selection will select for the most fit, it doesn't mean it will in the same time be selecting to form new biological functions in the population. Simply because it is not doing that, it's selecting for most fit. And most fit have nothing to do with new biological functions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2009 7:34 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2009 3:25 PM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 72 of 85 (518237)
08-04-2009 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Straggler
08-04-2009 3:25 PM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
What if a newly evolved or slightly modified "biological function" increases the fitness of an individual to survive and reproduce?
New biological functions do not evolve. But slightly modified functions do push the fitness up. That would still not make natural selection select for the evolution of new biological functions, because the fit ones that do get selected are not selected in a way to produce new biological functions. Natural selection only searches those who are more fit than others, without trying to select for evolution of new functions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2009 3:25 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2009 5:19 PM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 74 of 85 (518508)
08-06-2009 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Straggler
08-04-2009 5:19 PM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
Well how many slight changes does it take before the function is "new" as compared to the original starting point?
Never. Because no new information is added.
quote:
Nope. I don't get it. If a modification of "function" results in increased "fitness" why will this change not permeate the population in time?
It will. But it won't lead to evolution of new molecular machines like ATP synthase.
It's very simple. Natural selection selects for fitness, not for molecular machines that don't yet exist.
quote:
If "functions" increase "fitness" then I fail to see how natural selection would not promote both?
I am limiting myself to your terminology here.
That is because form better fitness you do not need new information. But for new functions you do. And natural selection can't get you new information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2009 5:19 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 08-06-2009 3:40 PM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 76 of 85 (518826)
08-08-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Straggler
08-06-2009 3:40 PM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
So you agree that "functions" can be modified.
Yes, they can.
quote:
You seem also to agree that modified "functions" that increase "fitness" will prevail. No?
Sometimes. Less than you think, but sometimes they will.
quote:
Define information.
Information in general is knowledge about something.
quote:
And why do you think it (whatever it is that you define as "information") cannot increase?
It can if an intelligence increases it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 08-06-2009 3:40 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 08-11-2009 8:42 AM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 78 of 85 (520173)
08-19-2009 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Straggler
08-11-2009 8:42 AM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
So for information to increase there has to be an increase in knowledge too?
In the case of naturally occurring phenomenon devoid of human intervention whose knowledge is increasing?
Nobodies. Therefore natural processes do not create new information.
quote:
Nope you have lost me again. When taken in tandem with your previous answer this seems circular and/or contradictory.
Not really. Since if I create a new poem, I increased my knowledge. I created new information.
quote:
Can information increase without increasing knowledge?
Can you give me an example of a natural phenomenon where information has increased?
Nope. There is no such thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 08-11-2009 8:42 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2009 7:55 PM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 80 of 85 (520516)
08-21-2009 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Straggler
08-20-2009 7:55 PM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
Then how were humans "created"/formed? Surely we required an increase in information (by your definition of information at least)?
It would be the same kind of process you see when people create new technology. It would be an intelligent process.
quote:
Given that you have defined an increase in information as an increase in knowledge whose knowledge was increased by the creation/formation of humanity?
The said intelligence that would have created life on Earth would be th eone that increased the information content.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2009 7:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2009 8:40 AM Smooth Operator has replied
 Message 83 by Admin, posted 08-23-2009 4:44 PM Smooth Operator has not replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5135 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 84 of 85 (525433)
09-23-2009 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Straggler
08-22-2009 8:40 AM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
OK. Or when we intelligent humans (speak for yourself) create other things right? Like when you said that you wrote a poem?
Yes, this would be an increase in information. An intelligent action can produce that effect.
quote:
So you agree that information has increased. But you have defined information as an increase in knowledge. Smooth Operator whose knowledge was increased by the formation of life on Earth?
I am working with your definitions. Your theories. Whose knowledge was increased by the creation of life? Be explicit.
The intelligence that designed the universe had increased the knowledge. The whole of universe is representing this creation of information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2009 8:40 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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