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Author Topic:   Have complex human-made things been designed?
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5113 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 76 of 85 (518826)
08-08-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Straggler
08-06-2009 3:40 PM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
So you agree that "functions" can be modified.
Yes, they can.
quote:
You seem also to agree that modified "functions" that increase "fitness" will prevail. No?
Sometimes. Less than you think, but sometimes they will.
quote:
Define information.
Information in general is knowledge about something.
quote:
And why do you think it (whatever it is that you define as "information") cannot increase?
It can if an intelligence increases it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 08-06-2009 3:40 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 08-11-2009 8:42 AM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 77 of 85 (519094)
08-11-2009 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Smooth Operator
08-08-2009 4:50 PM


Re: Clarifications
Information in general is knowledge about something.
So for information to increase there has to be an increase in knowledge too?
In the case of naturally occurring phenomenon devoid of human intervention whose knowledge is increasing?
Straggler writes:
And why do you think it (whatever it is that you define as "information") cannot increase?
It can if an intelligence increases it.
Nope you have lost me again. When taken in tandem with your previous answer this seems circular and/or contradictory.
Can information increase without increasing knowledge?
Can you give me an example of a natural phenomenon where information has increased?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Smooth Operator, posted 08-08-2009 4:50 PM Smooth Operator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Smooth Operator, posted 08-19-2009 5:55 PM Straggler has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5113 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 78 of 85 (520173)
08-19-2009 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Straggler
08-11-2009 8:42 AM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
So for information to increase there has to be an increase in knowledge too?
In the case of naturally occurring phenomenon devoid of human intervention whose knowledge is increasing?
Nobodies. Therefore natural processes do not create new information.
quote:
Nope you have lost me again. When taken in tandem with your previous answer this seems circular and/or contradictory.
Not really. Since if I create a new poem, I increased my knowledge. I created new information.
quote:
Can information increase without increasing knowledge?
Can you give me an example of a natural phenomenon where information has increased?
Nope. There is no such thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 08-11-2009 8:42 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2009 7:55 PM Smooth Operator has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 79 of 85 (520326)
08-20-2009 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Smooth Operator
08-19-2009 5:55 PM


Re: Clarifications
Straggler writes:
In the case of naturally occurring phenomenon devoid of human intervention whose knowledge is increasing?
Nobodies. Therefore natural processes do not create new information.
Then how were humans "created"/formed? Surely we required an increase in information (by your definition of information at least)?
Given that you have defined an increase in information as an increase in knowledge whose knowledge was increased by the creation/formation of humanity?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Smooth Operator, posted 08-19-2009 5:55 PM Smooth Operator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Smooth Operator, posted 08-21-2009 8:12 PM Straggler has replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5113 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 80 of 85 (520516)
08-21-2009 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Straggler
08-20-2009 7:55 PM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
Then how were humans "created"/formed? Surely we required an increase in information (by your definition of information at least)?
It would be the same kind of process you see when people create new technology. It would be an intelligent process.
quote:
Given that you have defined an increase in information as an increase in knowledge whose knowledge was increased by the creation/formation of humanity?
The said intelligence that would have created life on Earth would be th eone that increased the information content.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2009 7:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2009 8:40 AM Smooth Operator has replied
 Message 83 by Admin, posted 08-23-2009 4:44 PM Smooth Operator has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 85 (520523)
08-21-2009 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by AlphaOmegakid
09-03-2008 11:43 AM


Re: many errors in your comments
... life can upwardly evolve ...
Upwardly? It amazes me that the people around here are still taking your kind seriously.

You've been Gremled!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 09-03-2008 11:43 AM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 82 of 85 (520566)
08-22-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Smooth Operator
08-21-2009 8:12 PM


Re: Clarifications
Then how were humans "created"/formed? Surely we required an increase in information (by your definition of information at least)?
It would be the same kind of process you see when people create new technology. It would be an intelligent process.
OK. Or when we intelligent humans (speak for yourself) create other things right? Like when you said that you wrote a poem?
Given that you have defined an increase in information as an increase in knowledge whose knowledge was increased by the creation/formation of humanity?
The said intelligence that would have created life on Earth would be th eone that increased the information content.
So you agree that information has increased. But you have defined information as an increase in knowledge. Smooth Operator whose knowledge was increased by the formation of life on Earth?
I am working with your definitions. Your theories. Whose knowledge was increased by the creation of life? Be explicit.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Smooth Operator, posted 08-21-2009 8:12 PM Smooth Operator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Smooth Operator, posted 09-23-2009 11:31 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 83 of 85 (520743)
08-23-2009 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Smooth Operator
08-21-2009 8:12 PM


Re: Clarifications
Hi Smooth Operator,
Please don't revert to short replies that leave people still trying to figure out what you're saying. In the Relativity is wrong... thread you said you were glad that we had "worked this out." That isn't actually accurate. What actually happened is that I explained the Forum Guidelines to you and made it very clear that I was going to enforce them, and you modified your approach to provide more information and explanation.
If you think you can get away with just following the Forum Guidelines for a few days before returning to your old style then you'll find yourself right back on the fast track out of here.
Clear?
Good luck on your exams!

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Smooth Operator, posted 08-21-2009 8:12 PM Smooth Operator has not replied

  
Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5113 days)
Posts: 630
Joined: 07-24-2009


Message 84 of 85 (525433)
09-23-2009 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Straggler
08-22-2009 8:40 AM


Re: Clarifications
quote:
OK. Or when we intelligent humans (speak for yourself) create other things right? Like when you said that you wrote a poem?
Yes, this would be an increase in information. An intelligent action can produce that effect.
quote:
So you agree that information has increased. But you have defined information as an increase in knowledge. Smooth Operator whose knowledge was increased by the formation of life on Earth?
I am working with your definitions. Your theories. Whose knowledge was increased by the creation of life? Be explicit.
The intelligence that designed the universe had increased the knowledge. The whole of universe is representing this creation of information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2009 8:40 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Aptera
Junior Member (Idle past 5190 days)
Posts: 4
From: Farmington, ME, U.S.
Joined: 01-06-2010


Message 85 of 85 (542233)
01-08-2010 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by andorg
09-02-2008 8:09 AM


"The idea that living organisms were designed comes from a common belief that complex human-made things have been designed. But is this correct?"
In the way I believe, yes it is.
"Let's see examples of the most complex human-made things like: modern Nokia mobile phone, Boing 747 airplane, Windows-XP operating system, and let's asks the following question: have these very complex systems been designed?"
Yes indeed they were. I highly doubt that silicon/metal/solder... All that goes into a cell phone was randomly thrown together and "Oh look what happened!", rather, people spent a long time researching radio technology and telephones in general to complete this final project. The word "evolve" has a base definition of any progressing change, technology does evolve in a sense, but this is irrelevant to the biological theory of evolution.
"It is not easy to trace the history of living organisms emerging on earth and to prove if they were designed or evolved, as it is not possible to find all the required evidences."
Absolutely.
"If one looks at the history of the above mentioned human-made complex things, it becomes obvious that all of them have been evolved. Airplanes, mobile phones, computer products have been evolved step-by-step, by trial-and-error method. No single human and even not a huge group of humans is able of designing a complex thing that never have existed before. Any complex thing appears upon a base of another complex things that already exist."
Ok, to start off, True or false: someone made the first; 1)cell phone, 2) Airplane and 3)OS. Now, humans designed these through science, they did not leave these cell phones in a box for however many years and come out with a better one, did they?
"The most intelligent persons like Leonardo Da Vinchi, Newton or Aristotle could never have designed an airplane, a mobile phone or a computer program. And Bill Gates with his team could not have designed Windows XP in 1981, when they created DOS."
Think of it as algebraic elements. Dos is E(1), W1 is E(2) etc... They needed those stages to get E(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) and finally! Win XP is here, did it evolve or was it designed? Can a small child, draw an accurate depiction of a human being? Not normally, when they grow older, however, they can. Did the small child evolve or did he grow and hone his drawing skills?
"And not because of the short of intelligence or small amount of people. In order to appear, Windows XP required a long series of steps, where the product of each step had to be checked by the environment: the market. Lots of computer programs improved by small changes, then were exposed to the market and those which survived became a basis for the future programs. This is the only way that could allow Windows XP to appear."
Well... Not to take this analogy too far, but there are many programs that never saw large market popularity, but are still hanging around today. The reason for that is that some people including the one who wrote it enjoy it. Think of it as building a tower, one needs the base blocks for building up, that doesn't mean that the top evolved. The top of this tower was designed, but the first part was needed.
"All inventions in the world are actually very small steps based on something that already exists. No invention can create something much more complex than currently existing."
I have no clue where you got that one. Were that true we would be living in caves not knowing how to write. I'm sorry, but that seems to be a highly flawed statement. Edison made a light bulb, he tried thousands of filaments, did it evolve? In a technological way, yes, but it had a design and a designer.
"So the conclusion is that all human-made complex things have been evolved and not designed."
No. They were designed and improved upon, imagine a house, the people build a porch on to it, the house is improved but it did not evolve.
"And if it is true from human-made complex things - why should it be wrong for the natural complex things (the living organisms)?"
Well, your argument follows an irrational logical process. Technology is more "improved upon" if you will, than "evolved". To see technological advancement, which is fully overseen by science and facilitated by research and very intelligent scientists and compare it to evolution is an analogy that is either false or beyond my scope.
Anyway, good luck in finding your answer.

"It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" - Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by andorg, posted 09-02-2008 8:09 AM andorg has not replied

  
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