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Author Topic:   Healthcare In The USA
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 72 (519446)
08-13-2009 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
08-13-2009 4:28 PM


I'll make this as simple as I can.
Pro health care reform position:
(1) Create a public option.
(2) If you're happy with your current insurance and choices, then this reform will not affect you.
(3) Insurance companies will not be able to deny care to preexisting conditions.
(4) Absolutely no change will be made to your current private insurance choices except the preexisting condition thing.
Opposition to the reform
(1) "Keep the government out of my medicare!"
(2) "I want my country back!"
(3) "I don't want to change my options!"
(4) "Obama is a communist, muslim terrorist!"
I heard the best analogy to our current option the other day. People who are opposing the public option for health care by saying it's government's way of taking over health care is like saying public bathrooms are the government's way of taking over the nation's bathrooms.
Right now, I'm trying to concentrate on something else as much as I can. I had a nervous breakdown the other day while listening to some very ignorant racist bastards yelling out lies, lies, and damn lies at a meeting. At my age, I don't want to suffer another breakdown.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 08-13-2009 4:28 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Straggler, posted 08-13-2009 6:18 PM Taz has replied
 Message 9 by Blue Jay, posted 08-13-2009 6:51 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 72 (519465)
08-13-2009 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Blue Jay
08-13-2009 6:51 PM


Bluejay writes:
My father is opposed to socialized healthcare because it will require significant raises in taxes to pay for it, and the tax will be taken from everybody, not just the people who choose the public option.
This is, of course, more lies being distributed by the racist right.
Two-thirds of the proposed program can already be paid by current budgets. The argument in congress right now is how to pay for the remaining one-third. There are many options available on the table to choose from, and raising taxes for everybody ain't one of them. If this bill passes, the next thing on the agenda will be to pick from the many options available to pay for the remaining one-third. Then of course, people are too racist and hysterical to actually pay attention to the real discussion to know the difference between reality and delusion.
As far as I'm concern, this debate is over. If stupid Americans want to screw themselves in the ass because they don't want to actually become informed, I say let them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Blue Jay, posted 08-13-2009 6:51 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Blue Jay, posted 08-14-2009 1:52 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 13 of 72 (519466)
08-13-2009 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Straggler
08-13-2009 6:18 PM


Re: So.....
Straggler writes:
Is the bill going to go through?
I doubt it, but there's always the miracle option...
Or has the hysteria and propaganda effectively worked?
So far as I can see, it's worked enough that just enough Americans buy into the lies that the bill won't pass.
I mean, if Sarah Palin outright lied to all the Americans watching her going away speech by calling one of the proposals "death panel" and nobody seems to care, what does that tell you about the moral right and their moral high grounds?
I cringed with a sharp pain when I heard her use "death panel" on national television. I mean... I'm just a regular joe and I know more about this stuff than the former vice presidential candidate... Am I the only one terrified that she might actually get voted into office in the not-so-distant future?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Straggler, posted 08-13-2009 6:18 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by dwise1, posted 08-14-2009 1:18 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 21 of 72 (519550)
08-14-2009 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Blue Jay
08-14-2009 1:52 PM


Bluejay writes:
So, they just had some money sitting around somewhere?
What were those budgets doing before?
Not sitting around. If you haven't noticed, in the past 8 years the previous president went on a spending spree. Just pulling the number of troops out of Iraq alone frees up god knows how many trillions of dollars.
Added by edit.
As we speak, programs that this administration thinks isn't worth the time and money are being eliminated.
Added by edit again.
For the record, I'm not a politician nor I'm some kind of political junky. I get my info from the same sources that are available to everyone: the news.
The two-thirds of the bill being paid for already by current budget is agreed by both dems and reps. Nobody is disputing that. What the main discussion that goes in congress is about how to pay for the remaining one-third. And again, nobody is disputing that... unless you want to call the president and every member of congress liars.
If you want to know the specifics, I'm sure there are better sources out there than me. I keep track of these things just enough to tell the difference between reality and lies. Being a social servant, I get literally 5 hours of sleep during a typical weekday and then collapse when Saturday comes. I really wish I have more time and will power to actually sit down and look more at the specifics.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Blue Jay, posted 08-14-2009 1:52 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 23 of 72 (519552)
08-14-2009 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by onifre
08-14-2009 6:50 PM


onifre writes:
Why do we have crazy town hall meetings and all this news coverage? It's a necessary distraction to keep us entertained, dude. It's nothing more than that.
Actually, I don't agree with this. Yes, the meetings are a distraction. But they could do just as much good as much harm. Congressmen want to get reelected. They're not going to wander too far off the map if it will mean political suicide.
The disinformation that are flying around act as a way for them to wander off the map without getting booted out of office.
In other words, these meetings are important.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by onifre, posted 08-14-2009 6:50 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 08-14-2009 7:40 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 25 of 72 (519557)
08-14-2009 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by onifre
08-14-2009 7:40 PM


onifre writes:
But my point was more toward, why the media coverage and the hype, with the town-hall meetings and with "death panels," etc? That's where I feel the disinformation is coming from, the mainstream media.
I guess you could say this from a certain perspective. It's Sarah Palin that used the words "death panels". That, to me, is disinformation. Am I correct to understand that you see the media reporting Sarah Palin saying "death panels" as the disinformation in all of this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 08-14-2009 7:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by onifre, posted 08-14-2009 10:20 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 36 of 72 (519737)
08-16-2009 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by purpledawn
08-16-2009 12:42 PM


Re: Big Pharma
purpledawn writes:
Right now some doctors won't take Medicare or Medicaid.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this very general statement. Some doctors don't accept some insurance, period. I remember having to look for a doctor that would accept my private insurance a while back. Why make a statement that is true all the time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by purpledawn, posted 08-16-2009 12:42 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 08-16-2009 9:08 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 38 of 72 (519756)
08-17-2009 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
08-16-2009 9:08 PM


Re: Big Pharma
purpledawn writes:
I don't understand your issue with the statement given that I was curious if they will force doctors to accept all insurances.
I didn't have a problem with the forcing doctors to accept all insurances thing. I had a problem with you specifically saying some doctors don't accept medicare and medicaid. It's like dropping Obama's middle name right in the middle of a conversation.
There's been a lot of disinformation flying around, especially from your side of the fence. I'm sure you'd understand that naturally I'd be suspicious of subtle messages such as yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 08-16-2009 9:08 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2009 6:44 AM Taz has replied
 Message 42 by Asgara, posted 08-17-2009 7:19 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 40 of 72 (519822)
08-17-2009 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by purpledawn
08-17-2009 6:44 AM


Re: Big Pharma
purpledawn writes:
Why? It's a true statement, whether it is all encompassing or not.
Yes, and so is saying "Barack Hussein" in the middle of a conversation. It's a perfectly legitimate thing to say, since that's his middle name. But please, we're not naive here. We all know why a person would drop his middle name in the middle of a conversation. Let's not play this game.
Same thing with the statement "some doctors don't accept medicare". It's a true statement. In fact, it's almost a universal statement, since some doctors don't accept some insurance, period. Please understand that some of us might interpret this as your way of dissing public health care option.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2009 6:44 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2009 4:39 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 43 of 72 (519856)
08-17-2009 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by purpledawn
08-17-2009 4:39 PM


Re: Big Pharma
purpledawn writes:
Why?
I meant to reply like 5 hours ago but had to go on some lite businesses that eventually took about 4 hours...
Ok, let me explain in detail.
I don't think there's a word for this kind of behavior which I'm about to explain, at least not yet anyway. In a conversation, a person could drop in a line or two that are perfectly correct statements that can act as a reference to something else, usually something bad, and not have to answer a confrontation. Let me give a few examples before I go on.
During the 2008 presidential debates, I often found people randomly dropping in Obama's middle name right smack in the middle of the conversation. When I called them out on it, they just said it was his middle name and there was nothing wrong with saying his middle name. But since I was not a child and they were not children, we all knew they were trying to connect Obama with terrorism without actually saying it.
I remember once upon a time I worked in an office. There was this guy that always mentioned the fact that the elevator shook every time this big woman stepped in. Yes, it was a statement of fact that the elevator shook every time she stepped in. But it was also a fact that it shook every time ANY OF US stepped in. So, why mentioned it only when this particular woman stepped in? Again, I was an adult and so was everyone else. We all knew he was referencing her weight.
Even in our everyday conversation, we could say something without actually saying it by putting the concept in between the lines. Say someone cut in front of me in the grocery checkout line (inadvertently or not). I could say "people can be so inconsiderate at times", which is a statement of fact that is true all the time. If the person happens to hear me and tries to argue with me, I could just say "I was referring to... my neighbor last week..."
I can think of a kazillion other examples, but hopefully by this time you know what I mean.
"Some doctors don't accept some insurance" is a statement of fact. "Some doctors don't accept medicare" is also a statement of fact. The health care reform encompasses both private and public insurance. But when you only made your perfectly valid statement of fact about medicare, forgive me if I'm being suspicious that there could be some ulterior motive behind your statement. But like every other statement of its kind, it's impossible to pin down because (1) it's still a statement of fact and (2) one could always deny the implications that other people get from the statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2009 4:39 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2009 7:05 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 44 of 72 (519857)
08-17-2009 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Asgara
08-17-2009 7:19 PM


Re: Big Pharma
The side that lives out in the countryside.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Asgara, posted 08-17-2009 7:19 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2009 5:49 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 68 of 72 (520670)
08-23-2009 12:20 AM


I just love how Barney Frank responded to the ignorant masses.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Theodoric, posted 08-23-2009 1:37 PM Taz has not replied

  
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