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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 37 of 687 (520653)
08-22-2009 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by hooah212002
08-22-2009 6:30 PM


Re: Congrats. I Think You've One You Can Win.
Hi hooah, as I have not welcomed you to EvC Welcome.
hooah212002 writes:
Sure you can. Just look here:FSM Gospel
I guess you are right and I can prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist.
Spaghetti Monster (or FSM) is the deity of the parody religion[1][2] the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Pastafarianism.[3] It was created in 2005 by Bobby Henderson as a satirical protest to the decision by the Kansas State Board of Education to require the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to biological evolution in public schools.
Source
It seems the FSM was created by Bobby Henderson in 2005 so he only exists in Bobby's mind and those who have faith in him/her.
That turkey is done.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by hooah212002, posted 08-22-2009 6:30 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by hooah212002, posted 08-22-2009 8:27 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 39 of 687 (520664)
08-22-2009 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phage0070
08-22-2009 8:11 PM


Re: Old
Hi Phage,
Phage0070 writes:
"It was written a long time ago" is equivalent in your mind to "It is true."
I have sufficient evidence to convince me that it is true. But I will not waste my time here going over it again as I have in the past.
Phage0070 writes:
Also, can you clarify why you consider the Bible to be similar evidence as the archaeological record?
As you have pointed out the Bible is old and Archaeology is a study of old things.
Phage0070 writes:
Yes, and Yes. Definitive observation of the event, forming a conclusive and complete understanding? No.
Let me get this straight. You are changing my questions to read:
Are you claiming to have scientific evidence (enough to convince you) how the universe began to exist? yes/no
Are you claiming to have scientific evidence (enough to convince you) how life on earth began to exist? yes/no
Then answer yes to those two questions.
Then say no you do not have scientific evidence how the universe or life began to exist.
If that is not what you mean please make corrections as needed.
Phage0070 writes:
Scientists didn't come up with the big bang theory without observing background radiation and the expansion of the universe.
Lets see, the Lematre theory, was confirmed by Edwin Hubble's observations in 1929. (The universe was expanding) The BBT got it's name on March 28, 1949 by Fred Hoyle on BBC radio. The MBR was not discovered until 1964. So your facts are a little out of kelter.
Now I have got lots of questions concerning the BBT that I have asked that nobody wants to talk about. Since I was kicked out of my own thread asking those questions I will not ask them here.
Phage0070 writes:
You have fixated on one very old story over other, similarly unevidenced and old stories and persist in evading the question why.
I agree I have fixated on one very old story. It is at least 13.7 billion years old, according to science.
It is called the beginning of the universe.
The Bible is the only book that addresses T=0.
Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".
Straggler keeps telling me the universe "just is". That would mean the universe is infinite. Well that can't be as science says the universe has not always existed but had a beginning.
Science actually says as you go backward in time you reach a place the math will not work and tell you anything. Therefore there is 'no thing' there.
What is the scientific answer to how the universe began? "We don't know."
So let me ask you, what part of "We don't know", are you putting your faith in to come to your current conclusions?
Phage0070 writes:
Is the understanding complete at this point? No, but it is enough to tell us how it didn't happen.
You know enough to know how it didn't happen and all that can be said about how it did happen is "We don't know".
You may have faith enough to know how it didn't happen but you don't have one shread of evidence of the facts of exactly how the universe began to exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phage0070, posted 08-22-2009 8:11 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by hooah212002, posted 08-22-2009 9:27 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 45 by Phage0070, posted 08-23-2009 1:23 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 48 by kbertsche, posted 08-23-2009 5:13 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 41 of 687 (520666)
08-22-2009 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by hooah212002
08-22-2009 8:27 PM


Re: Congrats. I Think You've One You Can Win.
hooah212002 writes:
By that token, your god only exists in the minds of christians. See, I can do the same thing.
But the message you butted into I had said that, God had a man write down in a book the events concerning the beginning of the universe and life.
All that you are anyone has to do to prove it wrong is present the evidence of facts of how the universe and life came into existence.
Now if you got that evidence please present it.
I will not answer another post concerning your strawman. So rave on.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by hooah212002, posted 08-22-2009 8:27 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 42 of 687 (520667)
08-22-2009 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by hooah212002
08-22-2009 9:27 PM


Re: Old
hooah212002 writes:
Neither do you.
The only evidence I have I presented.
But I have been told that science has proven that information false.
I am just asking for the evidence that proves Genesis 1:1 false.
That evidence would be the facts about how the universe began to exist.
You got any evidence to present?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by hooah212002, posted 08-22-2009 9:27 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by lyx2no, posted 08-22-2009 10:55 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 44 by hooah212002, posted 08-22-2009 11:10 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 52 of 687 (520729)
08-23-2009 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by mark24
08-23-2009 3:25 PM


Re: Old
Hi Mark,
Mark24 writes:
Because one involves the solar system taking ~10 million years to appear, the other takes < 7 days. A tiny discrepancy?
Where does the Bible say the solar system took 7 days to appear?
Some very vocal YEC creationist say it took 6 days. But that is not what the Bible says.
The Bible says in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The heaven existed prior to Genesis 1:2-2:3.
The earth existed prior to Genesis 1:2-2:3.
In fact the earth is said to be in darkness and covered with water in Genesis 1:2.
So explain how they were created in the 7 day period you reference when they already existed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by mark24, posted 08-23-2009 3:25 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by mark24, posted 08-23-2009 3:43 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 54 of 687 (520744)
08-23-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by lyx2no
08-22-2009 10:55 PM


Re: Getting Older
Hi lyx2no,
lyx2no writes:
No you haven't. Tuffers said the creation story had been shown to be wrong. You interpreted this thusly: Only Gen 1:1 speaks of the creation; therefore, tuffers is saying that Gen 1:1 has been scientifically proven false.
In his OP tuffers said:
tuffers writes:
Many people today who accept that science has proven the creation story of the Bible to be fictional, somehow still believe in the creator from that story.
tuffers said "science has proven the creation story of the Bible to be fictional".
That is plain to me.
If you have a different explanation lets have it.
Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Declarative sentence of completed action. God created not will create in the 7 days found in Genesis 1:2-2:3.
Therefore tuffers said science has proven Genesis 1:1 false unless fiction means something else.
I simply ask for the evidence that proves Genesis 1:1 false/fictional.
lxyn2o writes:
Tuffers needs to present evidence that Gen 1:1 In the beginning God creates the heaven and the earth.
tuffers or anyone else has never been asked by me to present evidence that Gen. 1:1 is correct.
I have asked that the evidence that proves it false be presented.
lyx2no writes:
If your entire argument is that it hasn't been proven that a god of some sort did not create the Heavens and the Earth you,ll not find any sane challengers.
My argument is nobody has presented any scientific evidence of the creation of the universe. There is none, it does not exist.
Yet tuffers, and others have claimed science proves the Genesis account of creation false.
Either they do not know what the Genesis creation account says or they don't know what they are talking about.
Science has zero evidence of facts of how the universe began to exist.
Many here have said it did not begin to exist. "It just is".
"It just is", makes the universe infinite. That is the Steady state theory. Hoyle and Einstein held this theory to be correct.
Because of the discovery of expansion Einstein began a search of how God created the universe.
If expansion is true the universe did not exist and began to exist.
Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Science says: "In the beginning we don't know".
lyxn2o writes:
Gen 1:1 doesn't say enough that it can be proven wrong.
Sure it does. All you or anyone has to do is produce the evidence of the facts of how the universe began to exist There are several ideas but they are all the imaginations of man.
lyx2no writes:
The claim is the bit that evidence need be supplied for.
The claim is: "science has proven the creation story of the Bible to be fictional".
That is the claim.
My statement is that the evidence I asked for does not exist.
I am glad you agree that the evidence does not exist.
But I can't understand why the facts would not falsify Genesis 1:1 if it is not correct.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by lyx2no, posted 08-22-2009 10:55 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by lyx2no, posted 08-23-2009 7:54 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 55 of 687 (520746)
08-23-2009 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by mark24
08-23-2009 3:43 PM


Re: Old
mark24 writes:
It's implicit. If everything was created in creation week, then so was the solar system.
There is no creation week.
The only things created in Gen 1:2-2:3 is huge water creatures in verse 21 and mankind in verse 27.
There is a creation day. Gen 1:1 "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".
Genesis 2:4 delcares itself to be the account of the heaven and earth in the DAY the Lord God created the earth and the heaven.
BTW are you a YEC atheist?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by mark24, posted 08-23-2009 3:43 PM mark24 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ochaye, posted 08-23-2009 6:42 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 87 of 687 (520833)
08-24-2009 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 2:29 AM


Re; Scientific Evidence
Hi Sasuke,
Welcome to EvC.
Sasuke writes:
Your claim that there is no evidence suggesting how the universe came to exist is false. Follow the BB model and the evidence suggesting it occurred such as redshift or mbr...
I made no such claim.
You added "suggesting" to my claim.
Message 1 I stated the facts that:
quote:
Science has no evidence concerning how the universe began to exist.
Science has no evidence of how life began to exist.
In 2 1/2 years at EvC no one has ever presented any evidence of facts of how the universe or life began to exist.
The scientific answer is "we don't know".
If you have the scientific evidence of facts of how either began to exist present it.
You suggest I follow the BB model. Well the universe existed before expansion began. The BBT does not even hint at how the universe began to exist.
There are many wild suggestions as to how the universe began to exist.
There is even on that God created the universe.
Sasuke writes:
the evidence suggesting it occured such as redshift or mbr...
All the redshift and the mbr prove is that the Word of God is correct when over 2700 years ago it said:
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
The universe is expanding. So what? That fact has been in print for over 2700 years. Scientist could have saved a lot of money by reading the Word of God.
Sasuke writes:
Your claim that Science has no evidence suggesting how life came to exist is also false too. Simply follow the evidence for a biogenesis which is seperate from the TOE.
There you go changing my claim again.
There is no evidence of the facts of how life began to exist.
If there is present it.
There are several wild speculations of how non life came to exist as life.
Science has proved life produces life. It has never presented any evidence of facts of how life began to exist from non life.
There is even a wild story that God who is alive breathed life into a form and it became a living soul. (life begating life)
Sasuke writes:
The issue is not that there is or is not evidence for god-creation or any-idea-of-evolution but rather, in regards to EVC arguments, what is more plausible?
The issue as raised in my OP is I have been told: Here "science has proven the creation story of the Bible to be fictional,".
This thread was started to obtain the evidence of the facts that proved the creation story of the Bible to be false.
It turns out nobody know what creation is.
Creation is when 'some thing' that does not exist begins to exist.
Sasuke writes:
Do try to think in probabilities.
Probabilities has nothing to do with Scientific facts of how the universe and life began to exist that proves the creation story in Genesis 1:1 false.
Just give me the facts without all the fluff and strawmen.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 2:29 AM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 6:04 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 109 by caldron68, posted 08-24-2009 10:17 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 88 of 687 (520834)
08-24-2009 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:14 AM


Re: proven false
Hi ochave,
ochave writes:
The story in Gen 1 is proven false in the literal sense by Gen 2. At least one of the stories must be allegorical (and probably both, as scholarship holds) and there was never any need for science to come along and say so. Indeed, this was believed for hundreds of years before Darwin and Wallace.
Which story in Genesis 1 is proven false by Genesis 2?
Genesis 2:4 is the history of what took place in Genesis 1:1.
Genesis 1:2 took place a long time after Genesis 2:4 - Genesis 4:24.
Genesis chapter 1 and 2 are literal accounts of events they are not allegorical.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:14 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 4:06 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 89 of 687 (520835)
08-24-2009 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 8:40 AM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
So you think that life existed before the sun existed?
When do you think the sun was created?
FYI The sun was not created bara in Genesis 1:16
Life existed in Genesis 1:1, plants, animals, fowls, and mankind.
That life had ceased to exist in Genesis 1:2, as the earth had become uninhabitable for some untold reason. (There is much wild speculation)
Genesis 1:2 is a remodling of the earth to restore it to the inhabitable state that God created it in, in Genesis 1:1.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 8:40 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 11:49 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 92 of 687 (520845)
08-24-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 11:49 AM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
Can you answer the question?
The sun is part of the universe. I Assume.
Provided my assumption is correct the sun was created in the beginning which took place during Genesis 1:1. According to the Bible.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 11:49 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-24-2009 1:53 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 95 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 1:59 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 107 by caldron68, posted 08-24-2009 10:07 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 93 of 687 (520849)
08-24-2009 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Straggler
08-24-2009 12:13 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
And what do you meant by "infinite"? Do you mean eternal? As in no beginning? Or do you mean something else?
An infinite universe would exist in all directions for infinity.
It would be eternal never having to begin to exist or cease to exist.
Science says this is impossible.
In fact the claim is that it began to exist but will never cease to exist.
If the universe "just is" that means it exists and never had a begining to exist.
So my question to you has been and is, Is the universe infinite (has always existed eternally) or did it begin to exist?
The Standard Big Bang Theory assumes the universe had a beginning 13.7 billion years ago.
I hope I live for another 5 years until the new telescope is put into place and then however long it takes us to be able to see 500 billion light years. I wonder what is out there.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2009 12:13 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2009 6:37 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 100 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 7:36 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 108 of 687 (520911)
08-24-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 1:59 PM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
Hi Theo,
Theodoric writes:
So the sun was created but it didn't shine? The sun was an empty something or other?
Where is the sun mentioned in the following:From Message 23
ICANT writes:
kbertsche writes:
The second verse says that now the earth exists in an unfinished state. The third verse describes, from an earth-centered perspective, six "days" of finishing the rest of creation.
I do not believe it exists in an unfinished state in Genesis 1:1.
Therefore it had become an empty uninhabitable place. It was in darkness and covered with water. Inhabitable to water creatures only, maybe.
The "IT" being refered to is the earth kbertsche was talking about existing in an unfinished state.
There is nothing at all about the sun mentioned.
Yes it was in existence and shining on earth. The earth was covered with a cloud that the sun did not penetrate to produce much light but God fixed that when He turned the lights on in verse 3.
If I am not mistaken there was a meteor that hit the earth causing an extinction event that produced just such a situation at a different time.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 1:59 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 110 of 687 (520914)
08-24-2009 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ochaye
08-24-2009 4:06 PM


Re: proven false
Hi ochave,
ochave writes:
'Genesis 2:4 is the history of what took place in Genesis 1:1.'
That was the story that fundamentalists came up with eventually.
If you know some of those fundamentalist would you please give me their name or tell me where I can find them.
In 60 years I have never met anyone that believes Genesis 2:4 is the history of what took place in Genesis 1:1. I'll take that back there was an English teacher that examined the two verses and said Gen 2:4 claimed to be the history of Gen 1:1. Since he was an atheist he then added but it is just a myth so what difference does it make.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 4:06 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Percy, posted 08-25-2009 10:01 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 117 by ochaye, posted 08-25-2009 10:23 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 111 of 687 (520915)
08-24-2009 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 6:04 PM


Re; Scientific Evidence
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
The big bang model explains how the universe COULD have expanded.
Agreed.
God streaching out the universe accomplishes the same thing.
Sasuke writes:
It also suggest that the universe has always existed.
I would like to have some evidence for that statement.
If expansion is true the universe is not infinite.
Sasuke writes:
Says you! Follow the evidence. Not historical claims.
Then explain how something can expand that does not exist.
Sasuke writes:
There is no such thing as proof in relation to argument and more specifically evc arguments. I always find it funny when religious fanatics fail to see that point. Just because the BIBLE says it, does not mean it is TRUE.. Revelations are not enough to conclude that it is from GOD either so dont bring that hogwash up..
Are you saying redshift and mbr are not true?
Sasuke writes:
Why should I trust that the BIBLE is a divine book?
Well when your precious science discovered redshift and the mbr it proved that the statement made 2700 years ago actually happened.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 6:04 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 11:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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