Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-11-2018 9:10 AM
187 online now:
PaulK, Stile, Tangle (3 members, 184 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 843,790 Year: 18,613/29,783 Month: 558/2,043 Week: 110/386 Day: 13/47 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
67
...
46NextFF
Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2692 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 61 of 687 (520765)
08-23-2009 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by caldron68
08-23-2009 9:44 PM


Re: Getting Older
Considering that science has proven the broader story of Genesis to be false, isn't it only logical to assume that the first 10 words are also false?

I too consider it false. Not based on the rest of Genesis but on there being nothing to indicate that there is a god to start with.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by caldron68, posted 08-23-2009 9:44 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by kbertsche, posted 08-23-2009 10:51 PM lyx2no has responded

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 62 of 687 (520770)
08-23-2009 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by caldron68
08-23-2009 9:44 PM


Re: Getting Older
quote:
Considering that science has proven the broader story of Genesis to be false, isn't it only logical to assume that the first 10 words are also false?

Science has not "proven the broader story of Genesis to be false." Science has proven some specific interpretations of "the broader story of Genesis" to be false. Specifically the naive, ultra-literalistic interpretations preferred by YECs and by militant atheists.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by caldron68, posted 08-23-2009 9:44 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by anglagard, posted 08-23-2009 11:05 PM kbertsche has responded

    
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 63 of 687 (520771)
08-23-2009 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by lyx2no
08-23-2009 10:08 PM


Re: Getting Older
quote:
I too consider it false. Not based on the rest of Genesis but on there being nothing to indicate that there is a god to start with.

You consider something false simply because you don't see any independent verification? This would be a sensible reason to withhold judgment, but not to judge it as false!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by lyx2no, posted 08-23-2009 10:08 PM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by lyx2no, posted 08-23-2009 10:54 PM kbertsche has acknowledged this reply

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2692 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 64 of 687 (520773)
08-23-2009 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by kbertsche
08-23-2009 10:51 PM


Re: Getting Older
Do you believe in the Easter bunny?


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by kbertsche, posted 08-23-2009 10:51 PM kbertsche has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 2:57 AM lyx2no has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 65 of 687 (520774)
08-23-2009 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by kbertsche
08-23-2009 10:48 PM


Militant Athiesm?
kbertsche writes:

Science has not "proven the broader story of Genesis to be false." Science has proven some specific interpretations of "the broader story of Genesis" to be false. Specifically the naive, ultra-literalistic interpretations preferred by YECs and by militant atheists.

While I agree with your statement in general, I am puzzled as to what constitutes a 'miliant' athiest. Is it entirely based upon verbal or written criticism of religion such as Dawkins (who explicitly does not criticize my religion as stated in the first chapter of the God Delusion) or PZ Myers?

I think what puzzles me most is how can one call atheists 'militant' when I can't recall a single instance of a car bombing, school (or abortion doctor) shooting, or any other recent act of terrorism based upon a primary motivation of atheism.

Perhaps you can provide some examples, I vaguely remember maybe one in the last 30 years.

Edited by anglagard, : add abortion doctor as it is a clear act of terrorism


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Its us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by kbertsche, posted 08-23-2009 10:48 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by bluescat48, posted 08-23-2009 11:56 PM anglagard has not yet responded
 Message 67 by kbertsche, posted 08-24-2009 12:19 AM anglagard has not yet responded
 Message 69 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 2:47 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 66 of 687 (520778)
08-23-2009 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by anglagard
08-23-2009 11:05 PM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
I think what puzzles me most is how can one call atheists 'militant' when I can't recall a single instance of a car bombing, school (or abortion doctor) shooting, or any other recent act of terrorism based upon a primary motivation of atheism.

No they call us militant because we atheists have the audacity to criticize their sacred myths.

Edited by bluescat48, : emphasis


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by anglagard, posted 08-23-2009 11:05 PM anglagard has not yet responded

    
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 67 of 687 (520780)
08-24-2009 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by anglagard
08-23-2009 11:05 PM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
quote:
While I agree with your statement in general, I am puzzled as to what constitutes a 'miliant' athiest. Is it entirely based upon verbal or written criticism of religion such as Dawkins (who explicitly does not criticize my religion as stated in the first chapter of the God Delusion) or PZ Myers?

I think what puzzles me most is how can one call atheists 'militant' when I can't recall a single instance of a car bombing, school (or abortion doctor) shooting, or any other recent act of terrorism based upon a primary motivation of atheism.

Perhaps you can provide some examples, I vaguely remember maybe one in the last 30 years.



Good questions. By "militant" I mean those who are engaged in a (verbal) war against God and religion, trying to eradicate religion and belief in God. Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris are examples of this. (Perhaps we could use the term "extreme atheist," but this doesn't capture the warfare-against-religion mindset that "militant atheist" does.)

The point is that these folks tend to interpret the Bible in the worst possible light to further their agenda, rather than trying to understand what it is really saying.

Not all atheists are so militant. Some are more open-minded and are willing to co-exist with religious people and to try to understand them. Lawrence Krauss, for example, is a strong atheist but not so militant as the three mentioned above.

Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by anglagard, posted 08-23-2009 11:05 PM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 68 of 687 (520793)
08-24-2009 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
08-21-2009 10:48 PM


ICANT,

Your claim that there is no evidence suggesting how the universe came to exist is false. Follow the BB model and the evidence suggesting it occured such as redshift or mbr...

Your claim that Science has no evidence suggesting how life came to exist is also false too. Simply follow the evidence for a biogenesis which is seperate from the TOE.

The issue is not that there is or is not evidence for god-creation or any-idea-of-evolution but rather, in regards to EVC arguments, what is more plausible?

Do try to think in probabilities.

Edited by Sasuke, : clarity


Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 08-21-2009 10:48 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:11 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 69 of 687 (520794)
08-24-2009 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by anglagard
08-23-2009 11:05 PM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
anglagard,

anglagard writes:

While I agree with your statement in general, I am puzzled as to what constitutes a 'miliant' athiest. Is it entirely based upon verbal or written criticism of religion such as Dawkins (who explicitly does not criticize my religion as stated in the first chapter of the God Delusion) or PZ Myers?

I think what puzzles me most is how can one call atheists 'militant' when I can't recall a single instance of a car bombing, school (or abortion doctor) shooting, or any other recent act of terrorism based upon a primary motivation of atheism.

Perhaps you can provide some examples, I vaguely remember maybe one in the last 30 years.

Look up the hitler-darwin connection...click-here


Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by anglagard, posted 08-23-2009 11:05 PM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:03 AM Sasuke has responded

    
ochaye
Member (Idle past 3214 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 70 of 687 (520795)
08-24-2009 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by caldron68
08-23-2009 9:44 PM


Re: Getting Older
'Considering that science has proven the broader story of Genesis to be false, isn't it only logical to assume that the first 10 words are also false?'

Science has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that the literal view of early Genesis is false, but that anyone should take that view is the second biggest mystery in the history of the universe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by caldron68, posted 08-23-2009 9:44 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 2:59 AM ochaye has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 71 of 687 (520796)
08-24-2009 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by caldron68
08-23-2009 9:44 PM


Re: Getting Older
caldron68,

caldron68 writes:

Considering that science has proven the broader story of Genesis to be false, isn't it only logical to assume that the first 10 words are also false?

You can't "prove" Genesis to be false or true.


Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by caldron68, posted 08-23-2009 9:44 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 72 of 687 (520797)
08-24-2009 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by lyx2no
08-23-2009 10:54 PM


Re: Getting Older
lyx2no,

do you believe in protons, electrons, and neutrons?

Edited by Sasuke, : err


Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by lyx2no, posted 08-23-2009 10:54 PM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by lyx2no, posted 08-24-2009 9:42 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 73 of 687 (520798)
08-24-2009 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by ochaye
08-24-2009 2:54 AM


Re: Getting Older
ochaye,

whether or not the story in Genesis is true or false can't be proven. You can however lean one way or the other... Or try to think in probabilities..

Edited by Sasuke, : err


Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 2:54 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:14 AM Sasuke has responded

    
ochaye
Member (Idle past 3214 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 74 of 687 (520799)
08-24-2009 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 2:47 AM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
'the hitler-darwin connection'

A myth propagated by people as despicable as Hitler, and more dangerous. Do not be taken in.

Evolution has made Homo sapiens into the social animal par excellence, and defined the likes of Nazis as biological as well as moral retards.

Yes, evolution is moral. Something to meditate upon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 2:47 AM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 3:05 AM ochaye has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 75 of 687 (520800)
08-24-2009 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:03 AM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
ochaye,

ochaye writes:

'the hitler-darwin connection'
A myth propagated by people as despicable as Hitler, and more dangerous. Do not be taken in.

Both are arguments/opinions... Neither can be proven true or false..

ochaye writes:

Evolution has made Homo sapiens into the social animal par excellence, and defined the likes of Nazis as biological as well as moral retards.

Also an opinion can't be proven true or false.

ochaye writes:

Yes, evolution is moral. Something to meditate upon.

Morality is a concept of man just like religion. You could say that morality is probably a product of evolution, sure, but not that evolution is moral.. LOL..

Edited by Sasuke, : addition

Edited by Sasuke, : clarity


Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:03 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:16 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Prev1234
5
67
...
46NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018