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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
ochaye
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 76 of 687 (520801)
08-24-2009 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 2:59 AM


Re: Getting Older
'whether or not the story in Genesis is true or false can't be proven.'

The story in Gen 1 is proven false in the literal sense by Gen 2. At least one of the stories must be allegorical (and probably both, as scholarship holds) and there was never any need for science to come along and say so. Indeed, this was believed for hundreds of years before Darwin and Wallace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 2:59 AM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 3:21 AM ochaye has responded
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:34 AM ochaye has responded

    
ochaye
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 77 of 687 (520802)
08-24-2009 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 3:05 AM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
Also an opinion can't be proven true or false.'

If it can't be proved false, you can forget about that link you posted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 3:05 AM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 3:22 AM ochaye has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 78 of 687 (520803)
08-24-2009 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:14 AM


Re: Getting Older
ochaye,

ochaye writes:

The story in Gen 1 is proven false in the literal sense by Gen 2 At least one of the stories must be allegorical (and probably both, as scholarship holds) and there was never any need for science to come along and say so.

That is one of the arguments however there is no proof. What proof is there that indeed, in a absolute sense, that because gen 2 is contradictory to gen 1 that this means that gen 1 is false??? or the other way around that gen 2 is false?

As for Science to come along and say so, Science never came a long and said that gene 1 or gene 2 is false... LOL...


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:14 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:45 AM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 79 of 687 (520804)
08-24-2009 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:16 AM


Re: Militant Athiesm?
ochaye,

I could forget about a lot of things.. However, I think it is wise to think in probabilities rather than to think in absolutes.


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:16 AM ochaye has not yet responded

    
ochaye
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 80 of 687 (520806)
08-24-2009 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 3:21 AM


Re: Getting Older
'What proof is there that indeed, in a absolute sense, that because gen 2 is contradictory to gen 1 that this means that gen 1 is false???'

There is no proof that any of it is true. These discussions are based on the premise that religious belief of a certain sort is founded on the truth of certain books. Now, laddie, your argument is blown to bits, and trying to shift goalposts is not good.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 3:21 AM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 3:47 AM ochaye has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 81 of 687 (520807)
08-24-2009 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:45 AM


Re: Getting Older
ochaye,

No. The EVC argument is based on 1 argument being more probable than the other argument. LOL..


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:45 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:49 AM Sasuke has responded

    
ochaye
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 82 of 687 (520808)
08-24-2009 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 3:47 AM


Re: Getting Older
Go get some logic lessons, child.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 3:47 AM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 3:51 AM ochaye has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 83 of 687 (520809)
08-24-2009 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:49 AM


Re: Getting Older
ochaye,

haha..logic.. go learn a little bit about life my friend..


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:49 AM ochaye has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 84 of 687 (520828)
08-24-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by ICANT
08-22-2009 3:11 PM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
It was in darkness and covered with water. Inhabitable to water creatures only, maybe.

So you think that life existed before the sun existed?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 3:11 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:48 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12557
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 85 of 687 (520829)
08-24-2009 9:41 AM


Moderator Request
Please do not treat discussion threads like chat rooms. A thread over at Coffee House would be more appropriate for one-line exchanges. Thanks.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2578 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 86 of 687 (520830)
08-24-2009 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 2:57 AM


Re: Getting Older
do you believe in protons, electrons, and neutrons?

Mere moments ago I called down the wrath of God upon a sibling with the expected null result. If the sibling does not cease and desist I shall call down the wrath of electrons. I don't expect them to be as ineffective.

Edited by lyx2no, : Edit error.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 2:57 AM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 5:38 PM lyx2no has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 87 of 687 (520833)
08-24-2009 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 2:29 AM


Re; Scientific Evidence
Hi Sasuke,

Welcome to EvC.

Sasuke writes:

Your claim that there is no evidence suggesting how the universe came to exist is false. Follow the BB model and the evidence suggesting it occurred such as redshift or mbr...

I made no such claim.

You added "suggesting" to my claim.

Message 1 I stated the facts that:

quote:
Science has no evidence concerning how the universe began to exist.

Science has no evidence of how life began to exist.


In 2 1/2 years at EvC no one has ever presented any evidence of facts of how the universe or life began to exist.

The scientific answer is "we don't know".

If you have the scientific evidence of facts of how either began to exist present it.

You suggest I follow the BB model. Well the universe existed before expansion began. The BBT does not even hint at how the universe began to exist.

There are many wild suggestions as to how the universe began to exist.

There is even on that God created the universe.

Sasuke writes:

the evidence suggesting it occured such as redshift or mbr...

All the redshift and the mbr prove is that the Word of God is correct when over 2700 years ago it said:

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isa 45:12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

The universe is expanding. So what? That fact has been in print for over 2700 years. Scientist could have saved a lot of money by reading the Word of God.

Sasuke writes:

Your claim that Science has no evidence suggesting how life came to exist is also false too. Simply follow the evidence for a biogenesis which is seperate from the TOE.

There you go changing my claim again.

There is no evidence of the facts of how life began to exist.

If there is present it.

There are several wild speculations of how non life came to exist as life.

Science has proved life produces life. It has never presented any evidence of facts of how life began to exist from non life.

There is even a wild story that God who is alive breathed life into a form and it became a living soul. (life begating life)

Sasuke writes:

The issue is not that there is or is not evidence for god-creation or any-idea-of-evolution but rather, in regards to EVC arguments, what is more plausible?

The issue as raised in my OP is I have been told: Here "science has proven the creation story of the Bible to be fictional,".
This thread was started to obtain the evidence of the facts that proved the creation story of the Bible to be false.

It turns out nobody know what creation is.

Creation is when 'some thing' that does not exist begins to exist.

Sasuke writes:

Do try to think in probabilities.

Probabilities has nothing to do with Scientific facts of how the universe and life began to exist that proves the creation story in Genesis 1:1 false.

Just give me the facts without all the fluff and strawmen.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 2:29 AM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 6:04 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 109 by caldron68, posted 08-24-2009 10:17 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 88 of 687 (520834)
08-24-2009 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ochaye
08-24-2009 3:14 AM


Re: proven false
Hi ochave,

ochave writes:

The story in Gen 1 is proven false in the literal sense by Gen 2. At least one of the stories must be allegorical (and probably both, as scholarship holds) and there was never any need for science to come along and say so. Indeed, this was believed for hundreds of years before Darwin and Wallace.

Which story in Genesis 1 is proven false by Genesis 2?

Genesis 2:4 is the history of what took place in Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:2 took place a long time after Genesis 2:4 - Genesis 4:24.

Genesis chapter 1 and 2 are literal accounts of events they are not allegorical.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 3:14 AM ochaye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ochaye, posted 08-24-2009 4:06 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 89 of 687 (520835)
08-24-2009 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 8:40 AM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
Hi Theo,

Theodoric writes:

So you think that life existed before the sun existed?

When do you think the sun was created?

FYI The sun was not created bara in Genesis 1:16

Life existed in Genesis 1:1, plants, animals, fowls, and mankind.

That life had ceased to exist in Genesis 1:2, as the earth had become uninhabitable for some untold reason. (There is much wild speculation)

Genesis 1:2 is a remodling of the earth to restore it to the inhabitable state that God created it in, in Genesis 1:1.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 8:40 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 11:49 AM ICANT has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 90 of 687 (520838)
08-24-2009 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by ICANT
08-24-2009 10:48 AM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
Can you answer the question?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:48 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 12:57 PM Theodoric has responded

    
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