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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
Straggler
Member (Idle past 246 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 91 of 687 (520839)
08-24-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ICANT
08-22-2009 7:43 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
For the universe to to be "just is" as you put it.

It has to be infinite.

Does it? Why?

And what do you meant by "infinite"? Do you mean eternal? As in no beginning? Or do you mean something else?

I don't understand either your terminology nor your thinking regarding this matter. Can you clarify both?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 7:43 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 1:22 PM Straggler has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 92 of 687 (520845)
08-24-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 11:49 AM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
Hi Theo,

Theodoric writes:

Can you answer the question?

The sun is part of the universe. I Assume.

Provided my assumption is correct the sun was created in the beginning which took place during Genesis 1:1. According to the Bible.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 11:49 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-24-2009 1:53 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 95 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 1:59 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 107 by caldron68, posted 08-24-2009 10:07 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 93 of 687 (520849)
08-24-2009 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Straggler
08-24-2009 12:13 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Hi Straggler,

Straggler writes:

And what do you meant by "infinite"? Do you mean eternal? As in no beginning? Or do you mean something else?

An infinite universe would exist in all directions for infinity.

It would be eternal never having to begin to exist or cease to exist.

Science says this is impossible.

In fact the claim is that it began to exist but will never cease to exist.

If the universe "just is" that means it exists and never had a begining to exist.

So my question to you has been and is, Is the universe infinite (has always existed eternally) or did it begin to exist?

The Standard Big Bang Theory assumes the universe had a beginning 13.7 billion years ago.

I hope I live for another 5 years until the new telescope is put into place and then however long it takes us to be able to see 500 billion light years. I wonder what is out there.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2009 12:13 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2009 6:37 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 100 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 7:36 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3660
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 94 of 687 (520853)
08-24-2009 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ICANT
08-24-2009 12:57 PM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
The subtitle goes back to my message 4, which you pretty much totally dodged. Therefore I repeat message 4:

Minnemooseus writes:

What is you opinion on:

The age of the universe?

The age of the Earth?

The age of the first life on Earth?

The age of the first human (Homo sapiens)?

Do the modern great ages (gorillas, chimps) and modern humans have a common ancestor?

These are core questions in the creationism/evolution debate. Give me some sort of specific answers to each, even an "I don't know". Dodge the questions and I'll just write you off as being irrelevant in any scientific discussion of the universes history.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 12:57 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2009 11:47 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 95 of 687 (520855)
08-24-2009 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ICANT
08-24-2009 12:57 PM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
But in Message 23 you said...

Therefore it had become an empty uninhabitable place. It was in darkness and covered with water. Inhabitable to water creatures only, maybe.

So the sun was created but it didn't shine? The sun was an empty something or other?

If there was no sun shining on earth, how did the water not freeze or sublimate into space? What was the source of energy to keep this from happening? Magic?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 12:57 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:10 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
ochaye
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 96 of 687 (520867)
08-24-2009 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ICANT
08-24-2009 10:34 AM


Re: proven false
'Genesis 2:4 is the history of what took place in Genesis 1:1.'

That was the story that fundamentalists came up with eventually.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:34 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:19 PM ochaye has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 97 of 687 (520881)
08-24-2009 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by lyx2no
08-24-2009 9:42 AM


Re: Getting Older
lyx2no,

but are they really protons, neutrons or electrons? Do you actually KNOW?


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by lyx2no, posted 08-24-2009 9:42 AM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by lyx2no, posted 08-24-2009 8:02 PM Sasuke has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 98 of 687 (520886)
08-24-2009 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ICANT
08-24-2009 10:11 AM


Re: Re; Scientific Evidence
ICANT,

icant writes:

You added "suggesting" to my claim.

No I did not. If you're claiming that "Science has no evidence concerning how the universe began to exist." or that "Science has no evidence of how life began to exist." that is a suggestion.

ICANT writes:

In 2 1/2 years at EvC no one has ever presented any evidence of facts of how the universe or life began to exist.

The scientific answer is "we don't know".

The big bang model explains how the universe COULD have expanded. It also suggest that the universe has always existed. Why would there HAVE to be a begining? And if there was, even if the BB model is wrong, why does it result to GOD DID IT? How about, where did GOD come from? I assume you are going to say GOD has always existed but U have no evidence.... It is utterly a W.A.G.... Atleast with the BB model we understand more and it is based on EVIDENCE.. Do I need to repeat some of that evidence? redshift, mbr...

ICANT writes:


Well the universe existed before expansion began

Says you! Follow the evidence. Not historical claims.

ICANT writes:

All the redshift and the mbr prove is that the Word of God is correct when over 2700 years ago it said:

There is no such thing as proof in relation to argument and more specifically evc arguments. I always find it funny when religious fanatics fail to see that point. Just because the BIBLE says it, does not mean it is TRUE.. Revelations are not enough to conclude that it is from GOD either so dont bring that hogwash up..

ICANT writes:


The universe is expanding. So what? That fact has been in print for over 2700 years. Scientist could have saved a lot of money by reading the Word of God.

The word of GOD is a claim, even depending on which religion u study, however, scientists actually study what is going on by observation.

Why should I trust that the BIBLE is a divine book? What makes it any more divine than any other cultures thoughts on divinty? Have you ever studied history? Why is it that per culture there is a different divinity? Even within the same culture there is confusion on divinity? If GOD were REAL why would it choose confusion over clarity?


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:11 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 10:36 PM Sasuke has responded

    
Straggler
Member (Idle past 246 days)
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 99 of 687 (520887)
08-24-2009 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
08-24-2009 1:22 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
If the universe "just is" that means it exists and never had a begining to exist.

OK.

So my question to you has been and is, Is the universe infinite (has always existed eternally) or did it begin to exist?

The universe has existed for all of time. Does that answer your question?

ICANT writes:

The universe never began to exist but it has existed forever, but forever is only 15 billion or so years.

Exactly.

Science says this is impossible.

Where?

I still think you are destined to go down the philosophical route of uncaused causes, parsimony and the causal chain in this discussion but I will play your ever present T=0 games for now.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 1:22 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 7:42 PM Straggler has not yet responded
 Message 113 by ICANT, posted 08-25-2009 1:37 AM Straggler has responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 100 of 687 (520892)
08-24-2009 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
08-24-2009 1:22 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
ICANT,

I have issues with your post. You said:

"It would be eternal never having to begin to exist or cease to exist."

False. Take math for example, start counting, where do you start counting? now tell me when you have reached the last number.

You also said:

"In fact the claim is that it began to exist but will never cease to exist."

False. The claim is that the universe has always existed.

As for the rest of your post, you're stuck on "In the begining".. The issue is, there could have never been a begining.. OPEN YOUR MIND..

Oh and the 13.7 billion years in terms of time is relative to the begining of time, when things started to break down, when the first ATOM was formed. Before there was time, if there was such a thing, there could have been space still, just nothing existing in that space so chemical reactions could not occur, so we could not measure it in the form of time... Atleast in our form of TIME... I think that is where u are getting confused... Remember the word "time" is a symbolic word/ or tool used for measuring. Man created the word TIME and its defintion, its definition could change some day.. OPEN YOUR MIND...


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 1:22 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 101 of 687 (520893)
08-24-2009 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straggler
08-24-2009 6:37 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Straggler,

You said: "The universe has existed for all of time. Does that answer your question?"

I don't think he is catching that our universe could have existed before time and that time is a product of our universe.


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2009 6:37 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Rahvin, posted 08-24-2009 7:53 PM Sasuke has responded

    
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1049 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 102 of 687 (520894)
08-24-2009 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 7:42 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
I don't think he is catching that our universe could have existed before time and that time is a product of our universe.

ICANT has a history of being completely unable to comprehend a finite but unbounded dimension. We've been over the issue with him many times as to the actual nature of time, and what it means when discussing "beginnings" and "causes." He continues to insist that, if the Universe has a "beginning," it must also have a "cause," as if the notion of a preceding event has any meaning when discussing an absolute minimum value for time. As we've said to him many times, it's like asking what's farther North than the North Pole.

He also likes to compare "eternity" to Hawking's imaginary time, an additional timelike dimension that I don't completely understand (and neither does ICANT - the difference is that i admit it ).

Our resident physicists, cavediver and Son Goku (cavediver at least having actually taught cosmology at the University level, so he knows what he's talking about), have even tried to help ICANT understand. And failed. Repeatedly.

The problem is that ICANT isn't looking to understand facts or scientific models. He already "knows" the Truth. He's looking for similarities from science to support his preconceived position. If it sounds like it supports what he already believes, he'll jump on it - even if the actual theory doesn't even remotely resemble what he thinks it says on the surface. That which outright disagrees with his pet model...well, he has faith that "someday" we'll figure it our, and he'll have been right all along.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 7:42 PM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 8:05 PM Rahvin has not yet responded
 Message 106 by kbertsche, posted 08-24-2009 9:30 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2578 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 103 of 687 (520895)
08-24-2009 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Sasuke
08-24-2009 5:38 PM


Re: Getting Older
but are they really protons, neutrons or electrons? Do you actually KNOW?

Yes. Unless you have a magic meaning for the giant word "KNOW". You should open a new topic out of it.

OPEN YOUR MIND!

MAKE SURE THE JAR IS RIGHT SIDE UP.

AbE:

I am glad I started going to college...
Dang, I was tempted to make some sort of smarmy comment about your having just started collage, too. I was guessing about two to three weeks into philosophy 101.

Edited by lyx2no, : Prophetic.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 5:38 PM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Sasuke, posted 08-24-2009 8:11 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 104 of 687 (520897)
08-24-2009 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Rahvin
08-24-2009 7:53 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Rahvin,

It is all starting to make sense now... I used to be like that... I think we were all once like that... I am glad I started going to college back in 2003.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Rahvin, posted 08-24-2009 7:53 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3017 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 105 of 687 (520898)
08-24-2009 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by lyx2no
08-24-2009 8:02 PM


Re: Getting Older
lyx2no,

have you ever touched a single proton, neutron or electron? Have you actually seen one without the aid of a tool?

Just so you know, I am only arguing this point because of your absolute sense on the notion that there is no tooth fairy..LOL.. My parents were my tooth fairy.. .. a long time ago.. lol..
----
Oh, I have never taken a philosophy lesson cept for the derails in other courses but thanks for the compliment.
----

Oh and your comment "MAKE SURE THE JAR IS RIGHT SIDE UP."

What is right side up? Are you the only normal person? Or is it that there is an average type that makes defines normality? LOL.. What if those schezpfrenick people are telling the truth...? Besides in science it takes a lot of ODD ideas to get a good theory.. I could go back to when they thought the earth was flat, or even prior to darwin and his idea of evolution... Or perhaps einstein and his idea of e = mc2...

... done derailing...

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : spel err

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : derail over... LOL


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by lyx2no, posted 08-24-2009 8:02 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

    
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