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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1619 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 136 of 687 (521117)
08-26-2009 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Sasuke
08-25-2009 5:10 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
ICANT,

Im glad you finally understand the BB model a little bit better. The rest of your post I don't care to comment on...

What you have to appreciate is that ICANT likes to discuss hard-core cosmology in the way that an enthusistic maths schoolkid likes to discuss algebraic topology before understanding the rudiments of calculus. It sounds impressive to the peers but to the mathematician, it is worse than horrible. One must first learn to walk, swim and cycle before competing in an Iron Man. This has been explained to ICANT ad nauseam, but it does no good


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Sasuke, posted 08-25-2009 5:10 PM Sasuke has acknowledged this reply

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 137 of 687 (521119)
08-26-2009 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Rahvin
08-26-2009 3:04 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Rahvin,

Hmmph... So, essentially our universe has always been expanding even prior to T=0. T=0 meaning Time=0 or going back 13.7b years ago to 0?

Just don't respond if I am right. No need to waste a post.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2009 3:04 AM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by hooah212002, posted 08-26-2009 6:47 AM Sasuke has responded
 Message 140 by cavediver, posted 08-26-2009 7:27 AM Sasuke has acknowledged this reply

    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 138 of 687 (521137)
08-26-2009 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Sasuke
08-26-2009 4:38 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Well, current theorom suggests that there our view of a "universe" is skewed. Dr. Michio Kaku explains it quite well in an interview with the BBC here.

What is suggested is that basically you could think of an individual universe as a soap bubble, with black holes as birth canals in which a new universe would be spawned. A soap bubble because, hypothetically, all universes are connected via black holes, with "white holes" being the universe birthers.
You then get another big bang/expansion from each individual black hole once they become too full with matter, thus turning to "white holes" on the "other side", emitting enrgey, rather than sucking it all up.

If you actually think about it, and realize how vast our universe is, it's not really that inconceivable. Of course, you actually have to think OUTSIDE the box to perceive it. Hopefully, with Kepler, we will be able to get more data as to support this hypothesis, or discard it and come up with a new one.

so....

So, essentially our universe has always been expanding even prior to T=0. T=0 meaning Time=0 or going back 13.7b years ago to 0?

Basically, yes.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Sasuke, posted 08-26-2009 4:38 AM Sasuke has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Sasuke, posted 08-26-2009 7:00 AM hooah212002 has responded
 Message 142 by cavediver, posted 08-26-2009 7:36 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 139 of 687 (521138)
08-26-2009 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by hooah212002
08-26-2009 6:47 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
hooash212002,

So prior to T=0, hypothetically, a blackhole was feed to the point of explosion, which radiated energy causing a whitehole, which then in turn gave birth to our universe 13.7b years ago?


OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by hooah212002, posted 08-26-2009 6:47 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by hooah212002, posted 08-26-2009 7:32 AM Sasuke has acknowledged this reply

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1619 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 140 of 687 (521142)
08-26-2009 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Sasuke
08-26-2009 4:38 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
So, essentially our universe has always been expanding even prior to T=0

No, certainly not in standard Big Bang. T=0 is the singularity and there is no T<0. T=0 is simply a point in space-time in the region of which quantum gravitational effects will dominate and so we do not know how to make calculations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Sasuke, posted 08-26-2009 4:38 AM Sasuke has acknowledged this reply

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 141 of 687 (521143)
08-26-2009 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Sasuke
08-26-2009 7:00 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
As per string theory, yes.

If you think about it, a black hole is exactly what is theorised when speaking of "what was before the big bang". An infinitely, or near infinitely, dense point of matter. IMO, all of that matter has to go somewhere.

Scinetists don't normally just make up random shit and make it public. Well, at least the good, honest ones don't. The ones that do, are called those "creation scientists".

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


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 Message 139 by Sasuke, posted 08-26-2009 7:00 AM Sasuke has acknowledged this reply

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1619 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 142 of 687 (521145)
08-26-2009 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by hooah212002
08-26-2009 6:47 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Well, current theorom suggests that there our view of a "universe" is skewed. Dr. Michio Kaku explains it quite well

Be very careful here. There are a multitude of possibilities, depending on your assumptions and models. Michio has always been a little too keen on stressing one particular route, as have others, leaving the impression that that is the only possible route. I could spend weeks discussing all potential possibilities, and we still are very far from having a clue as to which, if any, is correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by hooah212002, posted 08-26-2009 6:47 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by hooah212002, posted 08-26-2009 7:37 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 143 of 687 (521147)
08-26-2009 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by cavediver
08-26-2009 7:36 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Very true. And I most definitely agree. I am just suggesting this as a very good possibility since the idea of "before the big bang" is becoming skewed as well.

And as can be seen here they are getting oh-so-close to successfully testing the theory. Couple this find with Keplar, and the VLT in Chile, here, which is in the process of being set up to take a direct peek at black holes, we are in for some kick ass cosmology in the coming years.

Edited by hooah212002, : added link

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Edited by hooah212002, : mistook VLA for VLT and found the article that has the info


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by cavediver, posted 08-26-2009 7:36 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Perdition, posted 08-26-2009 11:07 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 144 of 687 (521156)
08-26-2009 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Theodoric
08-25-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Hi Theo,

Theodoric writes:

So you are going to claim he doesnt believe what he says he believes? WOW.

No I am saying he is a hypocrite because he does not say what he believes. He says what the party line is while believing something entirely different.

Theodoric writes:

Then he doesn't believe it came from nothing. You say so yourself.

Just because I say he needs something does not mean he believes he need something.

Theodoric writes:

Have you?

Yes, Straggler brought it up a long time ago and we discussed how the universe is a free lunch, energy and matter is created with the energy remaining zero in the universe. So the universe or universes are created from nothing, for free.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Theodoric, posted 08-25-2009 5:13 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Modulous, posted 08-26-2009 9:45 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 146 by Theodoric, posted 08-26-2009 10:04 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 147 by Straggler, posted 08-26-2009 10:31 AM ICANT has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 79 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 145 of 687 (521158)
08-26-2009 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by ICANT
08-26-2009 9:24 AM


food for thought?
No I am saying he is a hypocrite because he does not say what he believes. He says what the party line is while believing something entirely different.

In the thread "How can there be a creator without creation?" you engaged in a similar practice. You seem to think you can know what a person really means, even when it runs counter to what they actually say. In that case, we had the advantage of having that person confirm you had misinterpreted them (Message 95)- doesn't this evidence give you pause that your method for understanding what people mean might be critically flawed?

Edited by Modulous, : subtitle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2009 9:24 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 146 of 687 (521164)
08-26-2009 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by ICANT
08-26-2009 9:24 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Hi Theo,

Theodoric writes:

So you are going to claim he doesnt believe what he says he believes? WOW.

No I am saying he is a hypocrite because he does not say what he believes. He says what the party line is while believing something entirely different.

Theodoric writes:

Then he doesn't believe it came from nothing. You say so yourself.

Just because I say he needs something does not mean he believes he need something.

Well that cinches it. I will not be debating you any more. You have shown a tendency to create your own reality in the past, but this is way over the top.

You make the claim that you know what someone truly believes even when it goes counter to what they actually say.

Debating with you is pointless. If a person claims the sky is blue, you will just say that it isn't true they meant the sky is red.

Have fun in your odd little world.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2009 9:24 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2009 11:59 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10267
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 147 of 687 (521170)
08-26-2009 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by ICANT
08-26-2009 9:24 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
ICANT writes:

Yes, Straggler brought it up a long time ago and we discussed how the universe is a free lunch, energy and matter is created with the energy remaining zero in the universe. So the universe or universes are created from nothing, for free.

Just to let everybody else know what ICANT is talking about here:

T=0 and a Zero Energy Universe contains a link which is what I believe ICANT is referring to.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2009 9:24 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 08-26-2009 12:31 PM Straggler has responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1213 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 148 of 687 (521178)
08-26-2009 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by hooah212002
08-26-2009 7:37 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Isn't Keppler just staring at a particular patch of sky to measure the dimming of a star when a planet passes in front of it to try and find exo planets in the range of Earth mass and Earth's distance from the sun? I don't see how that would help with string theory or black holes much at all.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by hooah212002, posted 08-26-2009 7:37 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by hooah212002, posted 08-26-2009 11:37 AM Perdition has not yet responded

    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 149 of 687 (521184)
08-26-2009 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Perdition
08-26-2009 11:07 AM


Re: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory
Indeed you are correct, sir. I mistook it for the Planck mission.

I am but an amateur astronomer, in the beginnings of my self-learning of the cosmos. So, I easily mistake one observation device for another, given the vast amount that are viewing the sky.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Perdition, posted 08-26-2009 11:07 AM Perdition has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 150 of 687 (521188)
08-26-2009 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Minnemooseus
08-24-2009 1:53 PM


Re: What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry
Hi Moose,

I am sorry you were not satisfied with the answers I gave Here to your questions in This

1. My opinion on the age of the universe.

quote:
This presents a problem for me that has not been resolved to my satisfaction yet

My personal opinion is that the universe has always existed eternally in some form.

I know it has existed this once.

I believe it will exist in a different form in the future.

I believe it is very possible to have existed in the form we now see it trillions of times prior to what we see now.

Therefore I believe the universe began to exist as we know it from energy that has always existed eternally.

How long ago did the present universe as we see it today begin to exist is what I think you are asking?

The answer to that is I don't know.

Science tells me it is anywhere from 8 billion years old to 20 billion years old depending on whose numbers you use.

When the new telescope is deployed in 2014 and stars are seen that are 500 billion light years away I have a feeling those numbers will change. I could be mistaken.

2. My opinion on the age of the earth.

The earth has always eternally existed in some form.

2a. How long has it existed in its present form?

I don't know.

I only know what science says.

3. My opinion on the age of the first life on earth.

3a. There is not a number big enough to desiginate when I believe the first life to be on earth.

4. My opinion on the first human life on this earth

The first life on the present earth began during the light period that is found in Genesis 1:1 which the account/history of is given in Genesis 2:4-4:24.

This life began billions of years ago.

This life ceased to exist prior to the evening found in Genesis 1:2.

The present life on the earth began to exist some 6000 years ago when God did a restoration of the earth.

Calling vegetation from the seed in the ground. Calling animals from the ground to appear after their kind. Creating water creatures. Creating mankind in His image.

4a. Modern man began to exist some 6000 years ago when God created man in His image/likeness.

5. My opinion on the modern great apes (gorillas, chimps) and modern humans haveing a common ancestor?

The only thing any living creatures have in common is their Creator and many of the things He created them from.

I am glad you only asked for my opinion.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-24-2009 1:53 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Perdition, posted 08-26-2009 12:03 PM ICANT has responded

    
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