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Author | Topic: ICANT'S position in the creation debate | |||||||||||||||||||||||
greyseal Member (Idle past 3884 days) Posts: 464 Joined: |
ICANT, I seriously suggest you leave the attempts at deepness to one side because not a single thing you said there attempting to sound smart sounded anything of the sort.
A dimension is not a physical thing, it is a property of a physical thing. time itself measures nothing, it is something we can measure things WITH. I think you know this.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: Are you seriously claiming that eternal infinity is more evidenced than uncaused beginnings? I didn't claim anything. If I have to I will claim that faith in an eternal infinity is a lot easier that faith that 'some thing' came from 'no thing'. Now do you want to answer the question I asked in Message 205 ICANT writes: So knock yourself out and explain how a uncaused universe can begin to exist under these terms. If there is no existence there is 'no thing' 'No thing' is something you have never been able to get you head wrapped around. 'No thing' means exactly that. There is 'no space' There is 'no time' There is 'no gravity' There is 'no energy' There is 'no mass' There is 'no vacuum' There is 'no quarks' There is 'no imaginary time' There is 'no instantons' There is 'no branes to fluctuate' There is 'no place for any of this to exist' Tell me how you get 'some thing' out of 'no thing'.
God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi lyx2n0,
lyx2n0 writes: Is length a physical thing? That was not the question. And is not an answer but a question. I stated time is a concept of a man. I came to that conclusion because, as I said I can not observe, touch, taste, smell, hear, or even experience time. I then asked the question:
Is time a physical thing as put forth in this discussion? You answered with a question. What does your question have to do with whether time is physical or my conclusion being correct that time is a concept of the human mind? You then state:
lyx2no writes: Time is not a concept of man. We merely measure it as we measure distance. So what part of time do you measure distance with? So you say time is not a concept of man. Are you saying it is physical? If so what is it made of? God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: As Lyx2no said, a dimension is a measurement of a physical thing, it is not a physical thing itself. We were talking about time being a dimension. So time is not a physical thing. What physical thing does time measure? Are you agreeing then that time is a concept of man? If not what is it? When we talk about creation and the universe beginning to exist time seems to become very important for some reason. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3260 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
So time is not a physical thing. Correct. It is a property of a physical thing.
What physical thing does time measure? Change. Duration.
Are you agreeing then that time is a concept of man? No. It is a property of things in the universe. Just like length is not a concept of man, or redness is a concept of man.
If not what is it? It is a property of the universe and all things in it, just as the other 3 dimensions we are familiar with are.
When we talk about creation and the universe beginning to exist time seems to become very important for some reason. To you, who wants to talk about a "before" the universe. If time is a property of the universe, there was no time before the universe. It's only important because you don't seem to understand or accept that. Most physicists or cosmologists simply say, "Time started at the Big Bang along with the Uiverse," and go about their day.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3665 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
If one thinks of length as the distance between objects and time as the distance between events they will both map in the same way in the models. Nice Great post, lyx2no...
The distance between two objects is not made of a material as one understands materials Hmmm...is it not? "Materials" are simply collections of values in the quantum fields (quarks, electrons, photons, gluons, etc.) "Distance" is simply a collection of values in the metric field. The quantum fields and the metric field, in most schemes, are facets of a unfied field. So time, distance, and stuff is all the same! Cool, huh? Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes: A dimension is not a physical thing, it is a property of a physical thing. time itself measures nothing, it is something we can measure things WITH. I think you know this.
So are you agreeing that time is a concept of the mind of humans? You stated it is not physical. If it is not the concept of the mind of man what is time? God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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greyseal Member (Idle past 3884 days) Posts: 464 Joined: |
ICANT writes:
hello again, hi.
Hi greyseal, greyseal writes:
Read this again. until you understand it.
A dimension is not a physical thing, it is a property of a physical thing. time itself measures nothing, it is something we can measure things WITH. I think you know this.
So are you agreeing that time is a concept of the mind of humans?
No, I am not agreeing it's a concept of the mind, I am saying it is a property of reality, specifically this reality that we both apparently live in. Time passes, space is. Whether I believe in it or not, it is. Whether I live or not, they are. If there were no minds to observe, reason and contemplate, they would still be. You stated it is not physical. If it is not the concept of the mind of man what is time? Got that? Good. I don't mean to be rude, just blunt. You appear to be trying to pull some sort of philosophical stunt and it's not working, sorry.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: Correct. It is a property of a physical thing. So what does the physical thing own? Is time the concept of man or what since you say it is not physical.
Perdition writes: Change. Duration. You have already said time is not a physical thing. So How does time measure change? How does time measure duration?
Perdition writes: It is a property of the universe and all things in it, just as the other 3 dimensions we are familiar with are. So you are saying time is a property of the universe. That would make the time dimension that is talked about a property of the universe. Along with length, width and height. Is that what you are saying?
Perdition writes: To you, who wants to talk about a "before" the universe. According to your above statement time just got real important to you. From all the information I can find time did not always exist. Therefore time began to exist. If time is a property of the universe, time did not exist until after the universe began to exist. That makes things kinda messy. But no time is not important to me as I live in a universe that exists in an eternal now. It has a thing we call time that is a concept in the mind of man. A tool invented by man to measure intervals and duration by a system that is based on the revolutions of the earth in relation to the sun. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3665 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
From all the information I can find time did not always exist. Therefore time began to exist. If time is a property of the universe, time did not exist until after the universe began to exist. Can you honestly read this and not see the gaping hole in your understanding? How can you say "time did not exist until after the universe began to exist." What does the word "after" mean in this context?
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3260 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
So what does the physical thing own? I don't know what you mean here.
Is time the concept of man or what since you say it is not physical. No, it is not the concept of man. Time, length, width, height, they would all exist whether we were here to measure them or not. Time is a measure of change or duration. If we weren't here, things would still endure, they would still change.
How does time measure change? If something was in one state at one moment, and in a different state at another, then time is measure of it's changing from one state to another over a span, rather than simultaneously being in both states.
How does time measure duration? If something exists, it exists from one moment to another, time is the measure of it's duration from the beginning of its existence to the end.
Is that what you are saying? Exactly.
If time is a property of the universe, time did not exist until after the universe began to exist. That makes things kinda messy. Not quite. Time began to exist exactly when the universe began to exist. They went hand in hand.
eternal now This doesn't even make sense. Eternity is a span of time, now is an instant, there is no span. SO what you're saying is a timeless span of time, which makes no sense. You're just doing word mash.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes: No, I am not agreeing it's a concept of the mind, I am saying it is a property of reality, specifically this reality that we both apparently live in. Time passes, space is. Whether I believe in it or not, it is. Whether I live or not, they are. If there were no minds to observe, reason and contemplate, they would still be. I prefer time exists.The universe exists. Space exists. The earth exists. Whether there is life on it or not. All of that equals eternal existence. But time as you and I know it also exists.This time is what man figured out to use to measure intervals and duration, some 5,000 years ago. Man is the only creature that carries a watch or is concerned with time. The time as you and I know it will cease to exist. The eternal existence will never cease to exist. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3260 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
All of that equals eternal existence. All of that equals current existence. It doesn't say anything about past or future.
The eternal existence will never cease to exist. That's a tautology, but you have to show that an eternal existence exists first for it to be relevant to anything in the rela world.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: If something was in one state at one moment, and in a different state at another, then time is measure of it's changing from one state to another over a span, rather than simultaneously being in both states. Time is the interval between the object changing. What determines the duration of that interval? Time, Then what determines time?
Perdition writes: If something exists, it exists from one moment to another, time is the measure of it's duration from the beginning of its existence to the end. You go to a baseball game.The umpire says play ball. You look at the scoreboard clock it says 1:00 PM. The game fly's by as nobody is scoring any runs. At 3:21 the final out is made and the game is over Yankees 1 Boston 0 The interval between play ball and the final out was 2 hours and 21 minutes. Now the game lasted 2 hours and 21 minutes in duration but how do you determine the game lasted 2 hours and 21 minutes? You say the scoreboard clock. Fine. What determines how the scoreboard clock can measure the duration of the game.
Perdition writes: Not quite. Time began to exist exactly when the universe began to exist. They went hand in hand. So let's see, Now you got a universe that can not exist without time, and you got time that can not exist with a universe. We are back to circular reasoning.
Perdition writes: Eternity is a span of time, now is an instant, there is no span. SO what you're saying is a timeless span of time, The message I am answering was posted at 6:05. I assume at that time you would have considered that time as now. It is now, 6:44 by my watch. I consider that now. When you get and read this message I will still be living in now. When you read this message you will still be living in the now. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes: All of that equals current existence. It doesn't say anything about past or future. My eternal now. I had about forgot about what I started this thread for. The universe exists. Did the universe begin to exist or is it infinite in all directions? If the universe began to exist it has a reason to exist. If the universe began to exist, why didn't it begin to exist earlier? What say ye? Is the universe infinite in all directions? OR Did the universe begin to exist?
Perdition writes: That's a tautology, but you have to show that an eternal existence exists first for it to be relevant to anything in the rela world. Is it still a tautology when science says the universe is infinite into the future? Since the universe exists science posits that there is an eternal existence, as it is infinite into the future. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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