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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1837 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 211 of 687 (521704)
08-28-2009 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by ICANT
08-28-2009 12:57 PM


Re: Information please
ICANT, I seriously suggest you leave the attempts at deepness to one side because not a single thing you said there attempting to sound smart sounded anything of the sort.

A dimension is not a physical thing, it is a property of a physical thing. time itself measures nothing, it is something we can measure things WITH. I think you know this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 12:57 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 4:50 PM greyseal has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 212 of 687 (521706)
08-28-2009 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Straggler
08-28-2009 1:27 PM


Re: Internal Logic
Hi Straggler,

Straggler writes:

Are you seriously claiming that eternal infinity is more evidenced than uncaused beginnings?

I didn't claim anything.

If I have to I will claim that faith in an eternal infinity is a lot easier that faith that 'some thing' came from 'no thing'.

Now do you want to answer the question I asked in Re: Internal Logic (Message 205)

ICANT writes:

So knock yourself out and explain how a uncaused universe can begin to exist under these terms.

If there is no existence there is 'no thing'

'No thing' is something you have never been able to get you head wrapped around.

'No thing' means exactly that.

There is 'no space'

There is 'no time'

There is 'no gravity'

There is 'no energy'

There is 'no mass'

There is 'no vacuum'

There is 'no quarks'

There is 'no imaginary time'

There is 'no instantons'

There is 'no branes to fluctuate'

There is 'no place for any of this to exist'

Tell me how you get 'some thing' out of 'no thing'.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Straggler, posted 08-28-2009 1:27 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2009 6:20 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 213 of 687 (521708)
08-28-2009 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by lyx2no
08-28-2009 1:05 PM


Re: Information please
Hi lyx2n0,

lyx2n0 writes:

Is length a physical thing?

That was not the question. And is not an answer but a question.

I stated time is a concept of a man.

I came to that conclusion because, as I said I can not observe, touch, taste, smell, hear, or even experience time.

I then asked the question:

Is time a physical thing as put forth in this discussion?

You answered with a question. What does your question have to do with whether time is physical or my conclusion being correct that time is a concept of the human mind?

You then state:

lyx2no writes:

Time is not a concept of man. We merely measure it as we measure distance.

So what part of time do you measure distance with?

So you say time is not a concept of man.

Are you saying it is physical? If so what is it made of?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by lyx2no, posted 08-28-2009 1:05 PM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Sasuke, posted 08-28-2009 8:50 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 239 by lyx2no, posted 08-29-2009 9:05 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 214 of 687 (521709)
08-28-2009 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Perdition
08-28-2009 1:11 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,

Perdition writes:

As Lyx2no said, a dimension is a measurement of a physical thing, it is not a physical thing itself.

We were talking about time being a dimension.

So time is not a physical thing.

What physical thing does time measure?

Are you agreeing then that time is a concept of man?

If not what is it?

When we talk about creation and the universe beginning to exist time seems to become very important for some reason.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 1:11 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 4:33 PM ICANT has responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1213 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 215 of 687 (521711)
08-28-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by ICANT
08-28-2009 4:20 PM


Re: Information please
So time is not a physical thing.

Correct. It is a property of a physical thing.

What physical thing does time measure?

Change. Duration.

Are you agreeing then that time is a concept of man?

No. It is a property of things in the universe. Just like length is not a concept of man, or redness is a concept of man.

If not what is it?

It is a property of the universe and all things in it, just as the other 3 dimensions we are familiar with are.

When we talk about creation and the universe beginning to exist time seems to become very important for some reason.

To you, who wants to talk about a "before" the universe. If time is a property of the universe, there was no time before the universe. It's only important because you don't seem to understand or accept that. Most physicists or cosmologists simply say, "Time started at the Big Bang along with the Uiverse," and go about their day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 4:20 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 5:49 PM Perdition has responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1619 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 216 of 687 (521712)
08-28-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by lyx2no
08-28-2009 1:05 PM


Re: Information please
If one thinks of length as the distance between objects and time as the distance between events they will both map in the same way in the models.

Nice Great post, lyx2no...

The distance between two objects is not made of a material as one understands materials

Hmmm...is it not?

"Materials" are simply collections of values in the quantum fields (quarks, electrons, photons, gluons, etc.) "Distance" is simply a collection of values in the metric field. The quantum fields and the metric field, in most schemes, are facets of a unfied field. So time, distance, and stuff is all the same! Cool, huh?

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by lyx2no, posted 08-28-2009 1:05 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 217 of 687 (521714)
08-28-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by greyseal
08-28-2009 3:19 PM


Re: Information please
Hi greyseal,

greyseal writes:

A dimension is not a physical thing, it is a property of a physical thing. time itself measures nothing, it is something we can measure things WITH. I think you know this.

So are you agreeing that time is a concept of the mind of humans?

You stated it is not physical. If it is not the concept of the mind of man what is time?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by greyseal, posted 08-28-2009 3:19 PM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by greyseal, posted 08-28-2009 4:55 PM ICANT has responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1837 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 218 of 687 (521716)
08-28-2009 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by ICANT
08-28-2009 4:50 PM


Re: Information please
ICANT writes:

Hi greyseal,


hello again, hi.

greyseal writes:

A dimension is not a physical thing, it is a property of a physical thing. time itself measures nothing, it is something we can measure things WITH. I think you know this.


Read this again. until you understand it.

So are you agreeing that time is a concept of the mind of humans?

You stated it is not physical. If it is not the concept of the mind of man what is time?


No, I am not agreeing it's a concept of the mind, I am saying it is a property of reality, specifically this reality that we both apparently live in. Time passes, space is. Whether I believe in it or not, it is. Whether I live or not, they are. If there were no minds to observe, reason and contemplate, they would still be.

Got that? Good.

I don't mean to be rude, just blunt. You appear to be trying to pull some sort of philosophical stunt and it's not working, sorry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 4:50 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 6:10 PM greyseal has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 219 of 687 (521723)
08-28-2009 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Perdition
08-28-2009 4:33 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,

Perdition writes:

Correct. It is a property of a physical thing.

So what does the physical thing own?

Is time the concept of man or what since you say it is not physical.

Perdition writes:

Change. Duration.

You have already said time is not a physical thing. So

How does time measure change?

How does time measure duration?

Perdition writes:

It is a property of the universe and all things in it, just as the other 3 dimensions we are familiar with are.

So you are saying time is a property of the universe.

That would make the time dimension that is talked about a property of the universe. Along with length, width and height.

Is that what you are saying?

Perdition writes:

To you, who wants to talk about a "before" the universe.

According to your above statement time just got real important to you.

From all the information I can find time did not always exist. Therefore time began to exist.

If time is a property of the universe, time did not exist until after the universe began to exist. That makes things kinda messy.

But no time is not important to me as I live in a universe that exists in an eternal now. It has a thing we call time that is a concept in the mind of man. A tool invented by man to measure intervals and duration by a system that is based on the revolutions of the earth in relation to the sun.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 4:33 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by cavediver, posted 08-28-2009 6:04 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 221 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 6:05 PM ICANT has responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1619 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 220 of 687 (521727)
08-28-2009 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by ICANT
08-28-2009 5:49 PM


Re: Information please
From all the information I can find time did not always exist. Therefore time began to exist.

If time is a property of the universe, time did not exist until after the universe began to exist.

Can you honestly read this and not see the gaping hole in your understanding? How can you say "time did not exist until after the universe began to exist." What does the word "after" mean in this context?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 5:49 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 7:29 PM cavediver has responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1213 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 221 of 687 (521728)
08-28-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by ICANT
08-28-2009 5:49 PM


Re: Information please
So what does the physical thing own?

I don't know what you mean here.

Is time the concept of man or what since you say it is not physical.

No, it is not the concept of man. Time, length, width, height, they would all exist whether we were here to measure them or not. Time is a measure of change or duration. If we weren't here, things would still endure, they would still change.

How does time measure change?

If something was in one state at one moment, and in a different state at another, then time is measure of it's changing from one state to another over a span, rather than simultaneously being in both states.

How does time measure duration?

If something exists, it exists from one moment to another, time is the measure of it's duration from the beginning of its existence to the end.

Is that what you are saying?

Exactly.

If time is a property of the universe, time did not exist until after the universe began to exist. That makes things kinda messy.

Not quite. Time began to exist exactly when the universe began to exist. They went hand in hand.

eternal now

This doesn't even make sense. Eternity is a span of time, now is an instant, there is no span. SO what you're saying is a timeless span of time, which makes no sense. You're just doing word mash.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 5:49 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 6:50 PM Perdition has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 222 of 687 (521731)
08-28-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by greyseal
08-28-2009 4:55 PM


Re: Information please
Hi greyseal,

greyseal writes:

No, I am not agreeing it's a concept of the mind, I am saying it is a property of reality, specifically this reality that we both apparently live in. Time passes, space is. Whether I believe in it or not, it is. Whether I live or not, they are. If there were no minds to observe, reason and contemplate, they would still be.

I prefer time exists.
The universe exists.
Space exists.
The earth exists. Whether there is life on it or not.

All of that equals eternal existence.

But time as you and I know it also exists.
This time is what man figured out to use to measure intervals and duration, some 5,000 years ago.
Man is the only creature that carries a watch or is concerned with time.
The time as you and I know it will cease to exist.

The eternal existence will never cease to exist.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by greyseal, posted 08-28-2009 4:55 PM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 6:14 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 235 by greyseal, posted 08-29-2009 2:44 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1213 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 223 of 687 (521733)
08-28-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by ICANT
08-28-2009 6:10 PM


Re: Information please
All of that equals eternal existence.

All of that equals current existence. It doesn't say anything about past or future.

The eternal existence will never cease to exist.

That's a tautology, but you have to show that an eternal existence exists first for it to be relevant to anything in the rela world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 6:10 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by ICANT, posted 08-28-2009 7:05 PM Perdition has responded
 Message 230 by Sasuke, posted 08-28-2009 9:02 PM Perdition has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 224 of 687 (521741)
08-28-2009 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Perdition
08-28-2009 6:05 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,

Perdition writes:

If something was in one state at one moment, and in a different state at another, then time is measure of it's changing from one state to another over a span, rather than simultaneously being in both states.

Time is the interval between the object changing. What determines the duration of that interval? Time, Then what determines time?

Perdition writes:

If something exists, it exists from one moment to another, time is the measure of it's duration from the beginning of its existence to the end.

You go to a baseball game.
The umpire says play ball.
You look at the scoreboard clock it says 1:00 PM.
The game fly's by as nobody is scoring any runs.
At 3:21 the final out is made and the game is over Yankees 1 Boston 0
The interval between play ball and the final out was 2 hours and 21 minutes.

Now the game lasted 2 hours and 21 minutes in duration but how do you determine the game lasted 2 hours and 21 minutes?

You say the scoreboard clock. Fine.

What determines how the scoreboard clock can measure the duration of the game.

Perdition writes:

Not quite. Time began to exist exactly when the universe began to exist. They went hand in hand.

So let's see, Now you got a universe that can not exist without time, and you got time that can not exist with a universe. We are back to circular reasoning.

Perdition writes:

Eternity is a span of time, now is an instant, there is no span. SO what you're saying is a timeless span of time,

The message I am answering was posted at 6:05. I assume at that time you would have considered that time as now.

It is now, 6:44 by my watch. I consider that now. When you get and read this message I will still be living in now. When you read this message you will still be living in the now.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 6:05 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Perdition, posted 08-31-2009 3:05 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 225 of 687 (521744)
08-28-2009 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Perdition
08-28-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,

Perdition writes:

All of that equals current existence. It doesn't say anything about past or future.

My eternal now.

I had about forgot about what I started this thread for.

The universe exists.

Did the universe begin to exist or is it infinite in all directions?

If the universe began to exist it has a reason to exist.

If the universe began to exist, why didn't it begin to exist earlier?

What say ye?

Is the universe infinite in all directions?

OR

Did the universe begin to exist?

Perdition writes:

That's a tautology, but you have to show that an eternal existence exists first for it to be relevant to anything in the rela world.

Is it still a tautology when science says the universe is infinite into the future?

Since the universe exists science posits that there is an eternal existence, as it is infinite into the future.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 6:14 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Perdition, posted 08-31-2009 3:14 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
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