9/11: 8 10th anniversary

I would have responded to his post, but they're usually too redundant and extraneous. Yes, of course there was a cause as with anything, just not the oft-repeated and ubiquitous plea of "oil." Al Qaeda has an extreme view of Islam. The US is to them the pinnacle of all that is wrong with Western society. They see America as greedy, as salacious, as infidels, as materialistic, as vain, etc. We to them are the representation of all that is wrong with society, including some of your own treasured loves. I'm certain there is some obscure passage in Qu'ran stating how comedians make light of Allah and you therefore should be stoned to death on account of that.As you can tell by the intended targets, the symbolic message through the physical act was to attack the financial, military, and political system of the United States.Message received... It's not the oil, per se, it's the fact that the United State's was wealthy enough to have that much power over oil. The oil is just one facet of why they don't economically like us. The OVERALL situation is our culture. That is their main focus. You do know that there has never ever been a culture known as Palestinians, right? Modern-day Palestinians are largely ethnically Jordanian. In fact, under the Ottoman Empire rule there really were no partitioned countries. It was just a huge area controlled by the Turks, who, believe me, ethnic Middle-Easterns didn't like then or now.The people that were living there were never kicked out, otherwise there would be no one there to fight with. They were granted access to live there forever. The real issue is that they are taught from day one to hate the Jews, which the Qu'ran spells out in no uncertain terms that they are infectious human waste. They are indoctrinated as little children to hate Jews. It's been that way long before Israel was a State.Here's some sick shit! Let me know if you see anything resembling this in Israel. So you're saying that Al Qaeda attacked the US because of military interventionism? Yeah, I'm really sure they cared that the US went to war with communist Vietnam, communists being another arch-enemy of extremist Muslims.This sounds more like a Michael Moore soapbox than something rooted in reality. What in God's name does this have to do with the topic? You honestly believe that Al Qaeda attacked the US because of unions??? Hello!?!? Onifre, I'm sure you despise all things American. Fine, I don't really care. But please deal with the facts of this topic and stop splintering off in to a tirade on EVERYTHING you perceive as an affront on the part of the US. Yes, but that doesn't justify the actions. Your scathing criticism is more aimed at the United States than with the people who used their own scathing criticisms as a justification for the murder of innocent people who have absolutely nothing to do with US foreign policy.Just imagine, all I have to do is blame "The System" for why I killed an old lady in a park. I agree that the US has a bad history of interventionism which leads to what the CIA refers to as, "backlash," but that doesn't mean the US' foreign policy should be completely emasculated or that we should all be made to feel bad if a cat in Yemen gets a splinter in its paw.I wish that the US would not inject near as much foreign policy as it does, I really do. The problem is that the world is becoming more globalized which means trade and other economic transactions have increased. With those very good things come some bad things.Al Qaeda doesn't even factor in to that though. They hate that you watch porn and if the chance came would kill you on that basis. Should we blame the entirety of the porn industry because you liked watching porn? Is it "porn's" fault that Al Qaeda killed you or is it Al Qaeda's fault.Put in to perspective. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

The irony of this sentence burns me.

I think it could be argued that if Dubya had heeded Clinton's warning about Bin Laden, and paid some attention to the PDB warning of attacks, 9/11 could have been less devastating - if not avoided all together.Whenever he & Cheney claim they kept our country safe, I want to vomit.

Psh... They both play a role. Clinton did way too little and Bush did way too much.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

True, but who knows how Clinton would have reacted to the August 2001 PDB?Edited by ooh-child, : changed to PDB

Clinton was incessantly harangued right after 9/11 for what he didn't do, as it was rumored that some years after the first Trade Center attack, that bin Laden was in a special operator's crosshairs but he ultimately called it off.Clinton never did an interview with FOX (for rather obvious reasons) until it became politically necessary to respond to the allegations that he didn't do enough.He took this interview knowing that he was going to respond vociferously, which bolstered the DNC and threw mud in the face of the GOP.You need to remember that the US was attacked SEVEN times by bin Laden PRIOR to 9/11, and 5 of those times under Clinton. The extent of what he accomplished was sending a cruise missile in to an Asprin factory.Bush was a dumbass and a war-mongerer far too prone to military intervention while Clinton was a draft-dodging hippy who is more in love with himself than with his country.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

It shouldn't, but I can see how you came to that conclusion.The thing is that the US government never feels their actions warrent repercussions from those who they shit on. So they weren't "asking for it," they just figured nothing was going to happen because no one had the balls to attack us. So they continued to shit on other countries, till someone said fuck it, and did what they did.The point of what I'm saying is that we shouldn't lose focus on what happened and lose sight of the reasons why things like that occur. If you fuck with enough people, oppress enough nations, supply weapons to enough tyrannical governments, place no value on the human rights of those in 3rd world countries, eventually, that kind of attitude will bit you in the ass. And at that point, the US government can't start acting like bitches 'cause someone did to us exactly what we've been doing to them for 50 years.- Oni

I always wondered what Al Qaeda's view of Canada or Switzerland is? Ever wonder that? Why the US, when everyone knows we're never greedy... I'll remember not to book any shows in Afghanistan. Yes, and not Hollywood, comedy clubs or malls. Your point? This is media driven bullshit. Bin Laden explained exactly why he attacked us, none of it has to do with our culture. But don't listen to him and listen to media propaganda, maybe the next building they bring down will help you understand. You do know that there was never a country named Israel, right? Wow... More media driven propaganda. Complete bullshit. Did you read the link? Do you understand what globalization is? I'm despising one thing American right now. You, and the spin that you've put on what I've said. Honestly dude, you need to re-read my post and try to understand it better and stop acting like a punk about it. You've clearly not understood my position so it would be better, if you care to debate this, if you did understand it before running off into your own little tirades. Who the fuck is saying that the actions are justified? When you're ready stop giving me the FoxNews babble let me know, and we can continue talking about this. Till then, save the O'Reilly speech for someone who cares to hear that bias garbage.- Oni

Wasn't that fun? "They hate our FREEDOM!!! "Oceana has always been at war with..." "They're just filthy anti-Semites who hate the good JEWS who've always been there! The Bible said the land was theirs!" "You just hate America!"...I didn't really need to change that one at all, did I? "Stop saying we deserved it, you unAmerican America hater!"Wait...was I paraphrasing an episode of the O'Reily Factor, or a post from Hyro? I forgot...

We recently approached Philadelphia from the east, crossing the Benjamin Franklin Bridge near sundown. We hadn't been in Philadelphia in years and years, and our reaction upon seeing the skyline was, "Holy cow! That's spectacular!"The two buildings that caught our attention aren't that tall, but they're glass and they're blue and they're beautiful. I couldn't find a picture from the east, but here's a high res picture (sorry, loads slow) that includes the buildings, doesn't quite do them justice though: I hope the New York skyline will become similarly spectacular. I grew up in Jersey across the Hudson from New York City and witnessed the World Trade Center towers going up on my travels up and down the Turnpike. The drab, anonymous, squarish towers were initially criticized, but they eventually became beloved and a symbol of New York. Whatever building replaces the World Trade Center will become the new symbol of New York, but I hope the new Freedom Tower is as spectacular and beautiful as those towers in Philly.--Percy

No, but only because I know the answer. Al Qaeda hates anything that does not conform to their extremely narrow views. They've beheaded anything that gets in their path. They've beheaded Japanese, Italian Filipino peace workers who were feeding Iraq's poor, so that they could use it as a propaganda tool to strike fear in the hearts of millions. They've bombed the Spanish for the same reason.They set their sight's on the US because it is the ultimate representation of their fury against all Western philosophy and culture. Who is listening to media propaganda, not that you'd know whether or not its was propaganda or truth? There exists overwhelming archaeological evidence pointing to the opposite.

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The real issue is that they are taught from day one to hate the Jews, which the Qu'ran spells out in no uncertain terms that they are infectious human waste. They are indoctrinated as little children to hate Jews. It's been that way long before Israel was a State.

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Media driven propaganda, yes, but from whom? The term "globalization" is extremely broad and in no way should assume negative connotations. You're going to have to be specific. The only spin here is the one you've put on this, where you've painted a false and distorted picture of how everything works. Your argument in a nutshell: America is wrong, Al Qaeda is sort of wrong, but not as bad as America. The overwhelming trend you are exhibiting is that you mostly blame the United States for 9/11. Is that not true? Is this a spin?The evidence of this is in your posts and how you managed smuggle in unions and other irrelevancies through the backdoor when speaking about 9/11. You assume that I'm taking cues from conservative talking points and pundits because I'm not nearly as liberal as you are. I am neither conservative nor liberal, as I feel my political beliefs are too nuanced to categorically side with either one 100% of the time.You aren't saying anything other than typical liberal sound bites, yet you are calling me biased because, even though I don't agree with much of Bush's foreign policies, I place the brunt of the blame on Al Qaeda for what Al Qaeda did as opposed to the blame shifting you are doing.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Great post, Percy! Thanks for sharing that with all of us.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Ever been to the South? Tell you what, walk into a diner in some little town off of 95 in the South with a gay comic, an arab comic and a black comic, and see how well they take you in. - (We had to leave beacuse it was clear we weren't getting served).ALL fundamentalist hate anything what doesn't conform to their extremely narrow views. You're not breaking new ground here, Hyro.But why America? You said because "it is the ultimate representation of their fury against all Western philosophy and culture."But the problem with that is, that's not what Bin Laden said. This is what I'm trying to explain - He gave specific reasons why he did it and you're not listening to his reasons, and it seems like you're only listening to the media and their reason for why Bin Laden did it. How clearer did Bin Laden have to be?Not listening to his reasons and creating this illusional reason is going to lead to an eventual repeat of that tragic event. Yes, and that's horrific. I would never think otherwise. But have you ever watched the footage of Hiroshima? People do shitty things. Man, how could we have avoided that...? Oh yea, by not going into Iraq! The only reason they are "able to strike fear in the hearts of millions" is because Bush INVADED Iraq with absolutely no reason for doing so, then you get pissy when they attack back, WTF?You're a pro-gun dude, how would you react if they invaded us? Don't be a hypocrite, Hyro. We invaded that country for no reason, you don't want bad things to happening to good people in Iraq? Then lets get the fuck out of there. Because that's exactly what YOU would want if they invaded us, for them to leave. Bin Laden gave his reasons for doing it, show me the evidence that our culture and Western philosophy is one of them. If not, then admit you got that from some news source and Bin Laden never said it. Like give you the negative aspects of it? Check Message 12 I gave them to you. I'm not painting a picture, I'm telling you what Bin Laden said were his reasons for attacking. You're the one saying it's for other reasons, but Bin Laden doesn't mention the reasons you give. So, the burden of proof falls on you my friend. This is wrong. Yes, you've spun it.Let me make it clear, Mr. O'Reilly, so that you can understand me better. I'm not blaming the US for the attacks, I'm saying to realize the reasons why we were attacked - THE REAL REASONS- so that tragic events like 9/11 can be avoided in the future. But not understanding the real reasons for the attacks will only lead to further attacks.Is that better, Bill? The union was mentioned when explaining the negative effects of globalization. The same negative effects that you're asking me for in this post. No, it doesn't, that's what you think it's because of. But it's not, though. It's because, instead of listening to Bin Laden's reasons for attacking, you're telling me it's for other reasons, reasons he doesn't mention. So where did you get these reasons from? The news media? Did you make them up? Is that your take on the situation? Bin Laden was specific, he was clear in his reasons, he doesn't mention the reasons you give, so where did those reasons come from? Again I'll try to explain it because you're wrong. I blame Al Qaeda as well. You see, we agree. BUT, like I said before, this is about the reasons why they attacked. You said it's because of our culture, but it's not. Bin Laden is clear as to why he did it, and it has nothing to do with our culture.US foreign policy, if not changed, will eventually lead to a repeat of 9/11. It has nothing to do with our culture.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

Maybe, but not all of them chop your head off or slam 747's in to buildings at 500 mph. Bin Laden was clear that he hates America and hates Israel. From what I can gather, his issues with America seem to be shared by you. Maybe he's not a terrorist after all. Maybe he's just a freedom fighter? Either way it all has a RobinHood-esque feel to it, and he's not a stupid man. He's smart enough to figure out how to play off of America's division to seek his own end. Or maybe that it is his own brand of propaganda. Did you ever consider that he's spreading disinformation intentionally to foster some support here? The more he causes division here, the more his goals can be achieved. It's classic psychological warfare. Oni, wake up and get onboard the reality train. WE invaded them and attacked them first, right? That's what you're saying? Try again. These Islamic extremists have attacked the United States and US assets around the world for decades, without the US doing anything in retaliation. Let me count the ways for you: The Berlin discotheque bombing, Pan Am Flight 103, First World Trade Center bombing, the Khobar Towers, both the embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya, the USS Cole, and finally 9/11 being the straw that breaks the camels back.This doesn't include a huge list of failed or foiled attempts, like the Richard Reid shoebombing, the New York City bomb plot, the 1993 NYC landmark bombing plot, etc, nor does it go over the atrocities faced by our neighbors and allies who have also unjustly suffered the wrath of extremist Islamicists.Yet you sit here and have the audacity, the sheer temerity to say that if we didn't invade Iraq, maybe none of this would have happened???Thousands of people have been killed and tens of thousands more injured over several DECADES where the US has been a target. The United States treated it as criminal cases and did nothing militarily until it became painfully clear that this has now gotten to the point that if the US and her allies don't capture or kill them on their own soil, that they will continue coming here. That fact is made evident by the clear historical trend that has never stopped. Yes they're from news sources, but come from his own mouth. The burden of proof then comes on you to prove that reputable news agencies worldwide, even Muslim news agencies, are all conspiring to lie. It's clear that he hates what America is, its value system, its apostate condition, its greed, its political stance with Israel, its interventionism, all of which I said and all of which he spells out in his own speech. I never said any of that, huh? That's funny because in my first post I stated all of that.You are thinking too narrowly, as if Haliburton and Bush are the real reasons. Obviously not since this predates all of that. So what is your solution, now that Obama is in the White House and still hasn't stopped Bush's Iraq War? What must America be that you honestly think that bin Laden is just going to go away and never shed blood again, even though the Qu'ran is explicit on what should happen to infidels?I'll tell you what America must be to satisfy them. America has to be just like them. Anything less is unacceptable.This is apparently what you fail to understand about him. He will always have some sort of complaint, and if not him, the next in line. This all started before Bush 2, Clinton, Bush 1, Reagan, Carter and there is no sign of it slowing down until we assimilate in to the way they envision their theocratic world should be like. Yes it is. At the end of the day he hates everything about America, which includes all of what you wrote about, but is inclusive to so much more. What I am trying to dispel is the notion that if we just leave Iraq and Afghanistan, all will some how be better. But history tells otherwise as the terrorist attacks all precede these wars and conflicts.At the end of the day, you have to read from his ultimate source, which he takes cues from, namely, the Qu'ran. America is the antithesis of what the Qu'ran spells out. We're apostates and infidels who must stop infecting the world.What you hear from bin Laden are temporary goals. Look at the bigger picture and the end-game solution for these individuals.US foreign policy, if not changed, will eventually lead to a repeat of 9/11. It has nothing to do with our culture.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Not that Onifre needs any help with this, but could you explain just when Iraq did any of these things???