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Author Topic:   Evangelical Indoctrination of Children
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 151 of 295 (524499)
09-17-2009 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Kitsune
09-17-2009 7:12 AM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
quote:
That's true, Christianity before Protestantism (i.e. Catholocism) pushed the fear of hell.
Whether Catholicism is Christianity, or, as the Reformers unanimously stated, antichristianity, is another debate. What is hardly debatable is that Catholicism pushed the fear of hell as its means of existence for a millennium, after the Reformation into modern times, and quite possibly still does in less developed countries, right now. It is somewhat absurd for any Catholic to express distaste for the concept of hell, when Catholicism itself could hardly exist without that concept. The absence of that belief in hell is one reason why Catholicism is dwindling. No-one should be in the smallest doubt that the Vatican would rapidly return to hellfire and alleged priestly absolution if it possibly could.
quote:
I have a problem with being asked to a) believe in a god that is not much different from a parent, and b) believe that this god loves us all until we hack him off enough, at which time we will be eternally tormented.
Check out your current Catechism, got up largely by your present leader, and I think you will have to agree that this is precisely what you are called upon to accept. It's just that sotto voce is the thing these days.
People who rejoice in the thought of most of humanity being sent to hell are evidently ignorant of the view of Paul that the Christians' deity wants the death of no-one, and wants all to be saved. But then, in America, ignorance is almost de rigueur.
Edited by ochaye, : Clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Kitsune, posted 09-17-2009 7:12 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Kitsune, posted 09-17-2009 8:09 AM ochaye has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 152 of 295 (524501)
09-17-2009 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by ochaye
09-17-2009 8:03 AM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
I'm not a Catholic. I'm not even a Christian. Anyway, you seem to be sidestepping the main points of my original post. Any thoughts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ochaye, posted 09-17-2009 8:03 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by ochaye, posted 09-17-2009 8:14 AM Kitsune has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 153 of 295 (524502)
09-17-2009 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Kitsune
09-17-2009 8:09 AM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
quote:
I'm not a Catholic.
I beg your pardon. It must be because you sound like one.
quote:
Anyway, you seem to be sidestepping the main points of my original post.
I'm unaware of that. Please explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Kitsune, posted 09-17-2009 8:09 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Kitsune, posted 09-17-2009 8:20 AM ochaye has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 154 of 295 (524504)
09-17-2009 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by ochaye
09-17-2009 8:14 AM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
Message 148
Second paragraph, in response to Percy's reiteration of the point of the thread:
quote:
The premise of this thread is that it is evangelical indoctrination during childhood that produces adults who have no compunction against condemning most of humanity to an eternity of suffering in hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by ochaye, posted 09-17-2009 8:14 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ochaye, posted 09-17-2009 8:27 AM Kitsune has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 155 of 295 (524507)
09-17-2009 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Kitsune
09-17-2009 8:20 AM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
quote:
The premise of this thread is that it is evangelical indoctrination during childhood that produces adults who have no compunction against condemning most of humanity to an eternity of suffering in hell.
Post #151:
People who rejoice in the thought of most of humanity being sent to hell are evidently ignorant of the view of Paul that the Christians' deity wants the death of no-one, and wants all to be saved. But then, in America, ignorance is almost de rigueur.
Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Kitsune, posted 09-17-2009 8:20 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Kitsune, posted 09-18-2009 9:16 AM ochaye has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 156 of 295 (524692)
09-18-2009 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hyroglyphx
09-14-2009 6:44 AM


Hyroglyphx responds to me:
quote:
It seems like "preying" to you because you have an aversion towards it
You mean emotional manipulation of a person incapable of consent, is dependent upon the one "teaching" him, and in no position to question authority isn't "preying"?
If it were anything else, we'd call it "torture."
quote:
but the people who are allegedly preying don't see it that way.
Of course not. That's because they don't trust other people to be able to make their own minds up. They feel the need to "save" people who might just think they don't need saving.
quote:
The people telling their kids about the rapture think they are doing them a huge favor. People such as yourself, however, feel those people are causing tremendous harm.
Incorrect. Telling somebody about it is one thing. Manipulating them while doing it is something else.
When was the last time you ever heard anybody preaching about the end of the world finish up the sermon with, "But I could easily be wrong"? "That's just me; your mileage may vary"?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-14-2009 6:44 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 157 of 295 (524725)
09-18-2009 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by ochaye
09-17-2009 8:27 AM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
Maybe you can review the last few messages Ochaye and ask yourself if you are addressing what either Percy or I said. I think this conversation is lost somewhere in non sequitur-land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ochaye, posted 09-17-2009 8:27 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ochaye, posted 09-21-2009 2:39 PM Kitsune has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 158 of 295 (525090)
09-21-2009 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Kitsune
09-18-2009 9:16 AM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
quote:
non sequitur
Does that mean 'impossible to reply to'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Kitsune, posted 09-18-2009 9:16 AM Kitsune has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Percy, posted 09-21-2009 3:06 PM ochaye has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 159 of 295 (525094)
09-21-2009 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by ochaye
09-21-2009 2:39 PM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
ochaye writes:
Does that mean 'impossible to reply to'?
I suggest you give Message 79 another look.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by ochaye, posted 09-21-2009 2:39 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ochaye, posted 09-21-2009 7:31 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 160 of 295 (525120)
09-21-2009 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Percy
09-21-2009 3:06 PM


Re: Worthless subtitle killed
It is obvious that there is no reply possible. People who rejoice in the thought of most of humanity being sent to hell are evidently ignorant of the view of Paul that the Christians' deity wants the death of no-one, and wants all to be saved. But then, in America, ignorance is almost de rigueur. So the accusation made in the OP is actually absurd, because whoever takes the attitude that is alleged (and there has even now been no substantiation of that accusation, anyway) cannot be obedient to Paul, or to Jesus, who commanded his followers to love their enemies. If skepticism and atheism are to make any advance, if they are even to be taken seriously and avoid ridicule, they must be credible.
Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Percy, posted 09-21-2009 3:06 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Kitsune, posted 09-23-2009 5:26 AM ochaye has not replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 161 of 295 (525356)
09-23-2009 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by ochaye
09-21-2009 7:31 PM


Reminder of topic
OK I'm going to try to elucidate again. Percy's recent reminder of the topic here was:
quote:
The premise of this thread is that it is evangelical indoctrination during childhood that produces adults who have no compunction against condemning most of humanity to an eternity of suffering in hell.
The very basic gist of my own reply, which you have ignored, is that fear is at the root of such beliefs and actions. It's the fear that causes people to find comfort in elitist groups which project their own undesirable qualities onto others. This includes racists. Do you have an opinion on this?
All you're doing is repeating your belief that God wants people to be saved. The problem is that the fundamentalists under discussion here believe that this can only happen if you become a fundamentalist yourself. A common tactic used to "save" people is to threaten them with hell. What's more, your attempts to paint yourself as someone who has compassion toward the "unsaved" ("love your enemies") is contradictory to opinions you expressed earlier in this thread:
Message 15
quote:
Is it uncompassionate and unloving to throw out the trash? Is it compassionate and loving to force decent people to live with people who are not decent?
Message 17
quote:
Are most human beings not trash, then?
I double-dog-dare you to put some thought into your next response, stay on topic, and write more than 2 or 3 sentences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ochaye, posted 09-21-2009 7:31 PM ochaye has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 162 of 295 (525360)
09-23-2009 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by slevesque
09-16-2009 5:42 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
But to be back on topic, I really think the 'children camp' thing will become a dead-end, since atheists have equally started their own children camps. They even 'debaptized' kids of 9 years old.
Oh noes, atheists are doing the same thing that theists have been doing, but in reverse!!!!111oneoneoneeleventyone
er...well not quite.
The biblecamps are several weeks of intensive fire and brimstone fed to kids when they are away from their parents and at their most vulnerable - this is their reason d'etre, to "save" sinners from hellfire.
The atheist camps seem to be a lot less of the fire and brimstone because they don't believe in it. What can you do, threaten a kid with NOT going to hell? Oh my, deary deary me.
I do not believe any atheist camp has debaptized any children (proof please, and not just accusations from the pages of aig), nor do I believe that any atheist would want to do something like that - it goes against everything atheists stand for, which is self-exploration and choice. They're likely to hold up certain differing information and say "here's what I believe", but they won't be calling religious people "idiots" to children.
Even PZ had a catholic child on student exchange stay with him, and did nothing more egregious to her faith than not go into the church with her.
Of course, I'm one of those awful, evil agnostic/atheists so I'm liable to be lying through my teeth and have a debaptism mill set up in my underground sweatshop, amirite?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by slevesque, posted 09-16-2009 5:42 PM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 7:43 AM greyseal has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 163 of 295 (525377)
09-23-2009 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by greyseal
09-23-2009 5:55 AM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
quote:
The biblecamps are several weeks of intensive fire and brimstone fed to kids when they are away from their parents and at their most vulnerable - this is their reason d'etre, to "save" sinners from hellfire.
Can we see some detail about this, please? Who runs these camps, and where? Is there evidence of 'several weeks of intensive fire and brimstone' that we can inspect for ourselves? The concept of this experience in today's world may well seem as unlikely as can be imagined to Europeans and others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by greyseal, posted 09-23-2009 5:55 AM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by greyseal, posted 09-23-2009 8:03 AM ochaye has replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 164 of 295 (525382)
09-23-2009 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by ochaye
09-23-2009 7:43 AM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
Can we see some detail about this, please?
Sure! Try:
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1#
and there are several (although the whole video is gone). If you think this is the only one, then I'd have to go collect a whole lot more "evidence" that you could probably still call "circumstantial" and "not indicative".
Can I have even one forced debaptism video in return?
JW's baptism of the dead doesn't count.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 7:43 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 8:32 AM greyseal has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 165 of 295 (525385)
09-23-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by greyseal
09-23-2009 8:03 AM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
quote:
Sure!
Thanks. I think. I couldn't stand it for long.
Now my question is, is that Christianity, or something else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by greyseal, posted 09-23-2009 8:03 AM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Michamus, posted 09-23-2009 8:47 AM ochaye has replied
 Message 189 by greyseal, posted 09-24-2009 2:01 AM ochaye has replied

  
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