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Author Topic:   Where did Earth's Iron core come from and how did the mantle become molten?
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 69 of 120 (523993)
09-14-2009 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Percy
09-13-2009 9:55 AM


Re: old universe
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Can you point to anyone making such an interpretation before such information came to light during the 20th century?
From the time of Aristotle there have been those who believed the universe was eternal.
Thomas Chambers actually taught the gap theory to his church in 1804.
The Jewish Midrash had other worlds created besides this one.
The Massoretic Text puts a Rebhia at the end of Genesis 1:1. Making a disjunction between verse 1 and 2, which means there is a duration between the two.
The book of Jasher teaches ruin-recreation even though not accepted as cannon. It was written long before modern day cosmology existed.
Targum of Onkelos, the earliest of the Aramaic Versions of the Old Testament written by Hebrew Scholars. Has text that translates "and the earth was laid waste".
So yes Percy the teaching that there is a durations between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 has been held and taught for over 2000 years. Some believed it and others did not. Most would not have said anything because that is not what the Church that was in power held at that time. People died because they disagreed with the church that was in power.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 09-13-2009 9:55 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-14-2009 7:37 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 78 of 120 (524050)
09-14-2009 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
09-14-2009 7:37 AM


Re: old universe
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Gap theory is just a reactive post facto reinterpretation of the Bible in light of modern scientific discoveries, and your other arguments are just more examples of the same thing being performed on other ancient texts.
You sound just like YEC'S.
So when did science find out the earth was old?
The scientific discoveries that Chambers was reacting too.
Science was introduced to the school system in the U S in 1894.
In 1949 having never been exposed to any science classes other than what I saw on the farm and found in Genesis I concluded the earth and universe was very old. I knew from Bible study that the earth revolved on it's axis and that it was round.
We had no electricity, thus no TV to learn from.
So why do you assume Thomas Chambers in 1804 was reacting to information that was not available until 1905 in the U S?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-14-2009 7:37 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 09-14-2009 9:40 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 80 of 120 (524082)
09-14-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
09-14-2009 9:40 AM


Re: old universe
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
This supports the thesis that gap creationism was a reaction to scientific developments and was not an interpretation that followed naturally from the Biblical text.
So the article cited supports your point of view,
While ignoring all the evidence that the teaching of an old earth had been held by many since the time of Aristotle.
You did not answer my question, "So when did science find out the earth was old"?
When was the first rock dated older than 6,000 to 10,000 years old?
What method was used to date that rock older than 10,000 years?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 09-14-2009 9:40 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Rahvin, posted 09-14-2009 12:57 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 95 of 120 (524417)
09-16-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Percy
09-16-2009 8:28 AM


Re: Ancient Universe
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Peg, we're talking about your claimed gap of billions of years between verses 1 and 2 and how this rather odd interpretation wasn't made until science discovered how ancient the Earth and universe are. And ultimately we're seeking how this is consistent with what we know about the Earth's interior.
You keep making the assertion that the gap theory was not taught until we found out by science that the universe was old.
You gave me a good article to read but you did not answer my question as to when science found out the earth was old.
Rahvin pointed out an article on the age of the earth.
But I would like your answers before I comment further so let me ask them again.
When did science find out the earth was old?
When was the first rock dated older than 6,000 to 10,000 years old?
What method was used to date that rock older than 10,000 years?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 09-16-2009 8:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by JonF, posted 09-16-2009 2:20 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 104 of 120 (524788)
09-18-2009 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by JonF
09-16-2009 2:20 PM


Re: Ancient Universe
Hi JonF,
JonF writes:
Scientists knew the Earth was far older than 6,000 years in the early 1700's.
Aristotle knew the universe was very old as he held it to be eternal some 300 years BC.
The earliest attempt to prove the age being longer that a few thousand year is a science fiction story written by De Maillet.
Which no one of the 1740's would have considered anything but science fiction.
The book you referenced states Voltaire went to considerable lengths to refute such heretical notions. From what I have been able to find out about Voltaire's worldview he would not have wasted his time, other than to maybe call it foolishness.
De Maillet used other than careful scientific reasoning to base his case on.
Newton did not put forth evidence for an old earth.
Buffon showed caculation based on the cooling of the earth held some promise as a method of determining the age of the planet. This took place sometime after 1749.
This was not explored in detail until 1862 by a professor at the University of Glasgow. Who became known as Lord Kelvin.
During the 1860's and onward Kelvin was involved in trying to determine the age of the earth.
"In spite of the questionable assumptions and the high degree of uncertainty in the data, Kelvin's caculations of the ages of the Sun and Earth were, at the time, considered highly authoritative. For three decades they stood as the best that physics could offer on the subject." page 38 your source.
Clarence King was the next big nme to come along.
King's paper (1893) was to advance Kelvin's method of determining the Earth's age.
Chamberlain attacked Kelvin's age of the Earth and Sun.
In 1903 Ernest Rutherford and Frederick Soddy determined the amount of heat generated by radioactive decay.
There was another attempt in the 1700's by Halley to date the earth using the salt content of water.
But Halley observed that the age of the Earth could not yet be caculated, because data was not available.
So my conclusions are:
In the 1700's there was not sufficient evidence from 2 men to cause religion a problem.
De Maillet's science fiction book would have been accepted as presetnted. Fiction.
Buffon's caculations showed promise of a way to date the earth.
These fellows probably got the same reaction to their beliefs and I do to mine. Are you out of your mind?
This was not explored until 1862 by Lord Kelvin.
Thomas Chalmers had taught as early as 1803 that Moses only dated the species not the earth. In 1804 He taught a gap between genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
Therefore the assertion that the gap theory was a knee jerk to science proving the earth to be old is false.
The gap was taught before the age of the earth was determined.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by JonF, posted 09-16-2009 2:20 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Perdition, posted 09-18-2009 5:24 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 107 by JonF, posted 09-18-2009 8:45 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 108 of 120 (524800)
09-18-2009 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by JonF
09-18-2009 8:45 PM


Re: Ancient Universe
Hi JonF,
JonF writes:
De mMillet's calculations were not presented as fiction.
Then one of us can't read.
Your Source Page 25 says
The result of de Maillet's extensive studies and observations was a history of the Earth that required a span of time vastly greater than the few thousand years calculated by the biblical chronologists. De Maillet was well aware of the power and influence of the Church, and his theory was written as a fictitious account of a series of conversations extending over six days between a French missionary and an Indian philosopher named Telliamed (de Maillet spelled backwards). Even with this precautionary device however, de Maillet did not publish his work. It was circulated among his contemporaries as a hand written manuscript and did not appear in print until 1748 ten years after his death.
Maybe I am wrong but it sounds like it was presented as fiction to me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by JonF, posted 09-18-2009 8:45 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by JonF, posted 09-20-2009 9:47 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 117 of 120 (525032)
09-21-2009 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by JonF
09-20-2009 9:47 AM


Re: You can't read
Hi JonF,
JonF writes:
Obviously you can't read.
You probably right so:
Humor me and please explain the statement:
"his theory was written as a fictitious account"
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by JonF, posted 09-20-2009 9:47 AM JonF has not replied

  
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