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Author Topic:   Evangelical Indoctrination of Children
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 166 of 295 (525388)
09-23-2009 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by ochaye
09-23-2009 8:32 AM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
ochaye writes:
Now my question is, is that Christianity, or something else?
To state a defense of "well they aren't real Christians is a "No True Scotsman Fallacy".
These people obviously believe the conditions stipulated in being titled "Christian", which is:
Christian n. -
a person who believes in Jesus Christ
With that, they are REALLY Christians, regardless of whether or not you agree with the way they go about executing the details of those beliefs.
This is off topic anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 8:32 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 9:46 AM Michamus has replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 167 of 295 (525390)
09-23-2009 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-10-2009 1:45 PM


You know, this is a subject that I have put a lot of though into lately.
I honestly think that the threat of hell (or damnation, or outer darkness) is the reason Christianity has maintained it's "popularity" (Islam included).
I cannot tell you how many times I have been pondering the question of god(s) existence, and come to the conclusion god does not exist, then only to have been swept up by my memories of "Hell" or even "Not being in Heaven with my family who will be there because they believe".
It's a pretty powerful tactic - dare I say strategy? - that gets to the deepest emotions of us humans, that is, our desire to be with our loved ones.
This why I have come to the conclusion that Hell and Heaven are obvious constructs of man, created for the sole purpose of control.
Regardless of the reasoning, telling children about these horrific things, as if they are fact, when we have no evidence for them other than our imagination is reprehensible. I would even categorize it as child abuse personally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-10-2009 1:45 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 168 of 295 (525400)
09-23-2009 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Michamus
09-23-2009 9:03 AM


It's a pretty powerful tactic - dare I say strategy? - that gets to the deepest emotions of us humans, that is, our desire to be with our loved ones.
My dad was a seminary-trained minister/missionary and a tremendously compassionate man, and he once told me that there is no place in the Bible where we are told we'll be "reunited with our loved ones." It sure does get preached a lot, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Michamus, posted 09-23-2009 9:03 AM Michamus has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 169 of 295 (525405)
09-23-2009 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Michamus
09-23-2009 8:47 AM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
quote:
This is off topic
The first two voices that I heard expressed great doubt that the Jesus camp movement was Christian, and both opinions were from claimed Christians, who may have been evangelicals. With this 'off topic' sort of approach, one might be suspected of wanting to bring into disrepute people who have no connexion with those seen on the videos. Such groups might even be each other's opponents. A very serious charge, that would be, and one must give no indication that it might justly apply.
It seems a very unsafe way for skeptics to proceed anyway, for intellectual reasons. Identification of those responsible is basic to the topic, unless it is to be conducted as a general gripe against anti-social elements, aside of the religious context. If one is to assess a particular belief, one must examine its underlying character, not accept whatever presents itself as representative of that belief. There are 'countless' species of Marxism, each claiming to represent the true views of Karl Marx, and it would be naive indeed to assess Marxism on the basis of the interpretations, let alone the behaviour, of claimed Marxists. For another thing, one would quickly arrive at incompatible conclusions, considering Marx a prodigious schizoid. And so it is with other beliefs, in particular, Christianity, which is well known for the great variety of interpretation and practice of those laying claim to be its followers. One cannot make a serious study that deserves any respect at all unless one is prepared to carefully scrutinise all manifestations that claim to be Christian that one pronounces upon.
In this particular thread, one must establish a common agreement as to what evangelicalism is before one can sensibly assess the video or other real world evidence, as I have mentioned twice already. So there is perhaps very much work to be done in this thread before a meaningful and respectable conclusion can be reached.
Now one can perhaps at this stage readily reach agreement that the video evidence is of an undesirable phenomenon, but nothing more than that.
quote:
These people obviously believe the conditions stipulated in being titled "Christian", which is:
Christian n. -
a person who believes in Jesus Christ
That, however, is not a satisfactory definition, because even those who believe in Jesus Christ do not accept it- and infamously fail to accept it, moreover. No denomination has a statement of faith anything like as brief as that- most run to several pages.
And with very good reason. What does the phrase 'believe in' mean? That traditionally evangelical phenomenon, the university Christian union, that normally contains a mixture of members of several Protestant denominations, has a statement of faith of approximately twelve detailed points which must receive assent before membership is permitted. Now whether the people seen on the videos could get membership is difficult to say, but unless one can reach an answer to that sort of question, there can be no progress here. As a video commentator observed, there may be far more 'political entanglement' to Jesus camps than Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Michamus, posted 09-23-2009 8:47 AM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Modulous, posted 09-23-2009 10:57 AM ochaye has replied
 Message 174 by Michamus, posted 09-23-2009 2:45 PM ochaye has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 170 of 295 (525426)
09-23-2009 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by ochaye
09-23-2009 9:46 AM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
That, however, is not a satisfactory definition, because even those who believe in Jesus Christ do not accept it- and infamously fail to accept it, moreover. No denomination has a statement of faith anything like as brief as that- most run to several pages.
Becky Fischer was once a member of a ministry with the following Statement of Faith
quote:
We believe in one God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, creator of all things.
We believe the Bible in its entirety to be the only infallible, inspired, authoritative Word of God.
We believe in the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He was crucified, died, buried, resurrected, and then ascended into heaven and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father.
We believe in the resurrection of the saved and the lost: the saved to the resurrection of life, the lost to eternal death.
We believe in the personal salvation of believers through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
We believe in the Holy Spirit who leads and equips us to fulfill the will of the Father in our lives as recorded in Acts 1:8
We believe in the Christian's hope--the soon coming personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We believe in healing, deliverance, and prosperity for the whole man: spirit, soul, and body.
I think most people would be comfortable with that being called a Christian denomination.
She started her own ministry Kids in Ministry International, whose statement of faith goes
quote:
We believe in one God who is eternally existent in three persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Creator of all things.
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, was buried, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father and is true God and true man.
We believe the Bible in its entirety to be the inspired Word of God and is our infallible guide of faith and conduct.
We believe man was created in the image of God, but fell into sin, which resulted in his spiritual death and separation from God. Only through regeneration by the Holy Spirit can salvation and spiritual life be obtained. This process of regeneration, referred to as being "born again" in the Word, takes place through a combination of faith and confession.
We believe in the resurrection of the dead, the eternal happiness of the saved, and the eternal punishment of the lost.
We believe in sanctification through the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit, and we believe in personal holiness, purity of heart, and life.
We believe in personal salvation of believers through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
We believe in divine healing, through faith in the Name of Jesus Christ, and that healing is included in the Redemption.
We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth, in speaking with tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance (Acts 2:4), in the gifts of the Spirit, and the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. We believe that all of these are available to believers.
We believe in the Christian's hope, which is the soon coming personal return of Jesus Christ.
which again I think everyone would universally describe as Christian. I think the general term for their denomination is Pentecostal, and I believe many would call themselves 'Evangelists' - though according to wiki some prefer 'restorationist'.
Of course, different denominations would disagree over what should be believed and how one should act. I think Becky Fischer's camp was run by a Christian group and I think it probably falls under the umbrella of "Evangelical" as Percy probably meant it in the OP.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 9:46 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 12:24 PM Modulous has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 171 of 295 (525451)
09-23-2009 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Modulous
09-23-2009 10:57 AM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
quote:
We believe in healing, deliverance, and prosperity for the whole man: spirit, soul, and body.
I think most people would be comfortable with that being called a Christian denomination.
Most rich people, sure! The salient question is, would evangelicals be comfortable with it? Would Protestants be comfortable with it? I don't think so, because neither has ever included 'healing, deliverance, and prosperity for the whole man: spirit, soul, and body' in their historic statements of faith. Prosperity teaching has been highly controversial, and condemned by evangelicals and many besides, including Catholics, as a modern perversion.
quote:
We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth, in speaking with tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance (Acts 2:4), in the gifts of the Spirit, and the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. We believe that all of these are available to believers.
Again, this is highly controversial, and likewise has been condemned as cultic, by evangelicals particularly, who believe that teaching of two spiritual baptisms is heretical, especially in this form, which strikes at the basis of Protestantism, sola fide. But read what it says. It is highly deceitful (if not highly brainless) to assert that the fruits (i.e. the evidence) of the Holy Spirit is evinced by gifts! It's a hypocrite's charter. No wonder it is small children who listen to this gibberish. Nobody with any theology, anyway, will give it a second glance!
Both of these teachings are modern novelties, bred in that hot-house for folly, the USA. Theologians do not take them seriously, any more than Mormonism is taken seriously. If this is the highest level at which the Jesus camp people think, they are not even worth our time, as far as their religious thought is concerned. If these are their beliefs, they are firmly opposed to evangelicalism and Protestantism. With their brain-washing, they are indeed a social menace, and their political inspiration is what needs investigation, because they are incompetents in theology. They were identified as the Religious Right in one of the videos mentioned, and right-wing politics would seem to be their true inspiration. In this they would share the same outlook, and methods, too, as Emperor Constantine, medieval popes and secular rulers, and others subsequently entangled in religion, whose interests were and are entirely mercenary, yet who saw and see fit to fabricate their own versions of Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Modulous, posted 09-23-2009 10:57 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 09-23-2009 1:38 PM ochaye has replied
 Message 173 by Modulous, posted 09-23-2009 2:00 PM ochaye has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 172 of 295 (525471)
09-23-2009 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by ochaye
09-23-2009 12:24 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
ochave writes:
quote:
We believe in healing, deliverance, and prosperity for the whole man: spirit, soul, and body.
I think most people would be comfortable with that being called a Christian denomination.
Most rich people, sure! The salient question is, would evangelicals be comfortable with it? Would Protestants be comfortable with it?
I know Mod said "Christian," but I think what you were questioning was whether the people running those Bible camps for kids have mainstream evangelical beliefs, and Mod presented evidence in support of that premise. If Becky were here she would likely argue that her Bible camp is an honest reflection of mainstream evangelical beliefs.
Again, this is highly controversial, and likewise has been condemned as cultic, by evangelicals particularly, who believe that teaching of two spiritual baptisms is heretical...
But the text doesn't talk of "spiritual baptisms." You believe in two baptisms, right? One that takes place with water shortly after you're born, and another that takes place later in life when one accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and becomes "born again." Becky didn't say that she considers them both "spiritual baptisms."
If these are their beliefs, they are firmly opposed to evangelicalism and Protestantism.
You picked at a few nits, but by and large Becky seems to believe precisely what you believe, but because you don't agree with her approach to Bible camp you're trying to find reasons why she isn't a "real" Christian. We see this type of thinking from evangelicals here all the time - any evangelical they disagree with or who committed some misdeed could not possibly be a "true" Christian.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 12:24 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 3:13 PM Percy has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 173 of 295 (525475)
09-23-2009 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by ochaye
09-23-2009 12:24 PM


fear as a psychological tool
I think most people would be comfortable with that being called a Christian denomination.
Most rich people, sure! The salient question is, would evangelicals be comfortable with it? Would Protestants be comfortable with it? I don't think so, because neither has ever included 'healing, deliverance, and prosperity for the whole man: spirit, soul, and body' in their historic statements of faith. Prosperity teaching has been highly controversial, and condemned by evangelicals and many besides, including Catholics, as a modern perversion.
Sounds to me like you are saying that because there are denominations there is no such thing as Christianity. Which, while I essentially agree with it, simply adds unnecessary complication to most discourse.
Theologians do not take them seriously
Theologians don't seem to take a lot of lay-beliefs seriously. I'm not sure what that has to do with whether the label 'Christian' or 'evangelical' is an appropriate one.
If these are their beliefs, they are firmly opposed to evangelicalism and Protestantism. With their brain-washing, they are indeed a social menace, and their political inspiration is what needs investigation, because they are incompetents in theology.
Whatever you want to call them, it seems that they are one (extreme) example of the kind of thing under discussion (ie., converting children using fear as a tactic).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 12:24 PM ochaye has not replied

  
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 174 of 295 (525486)
09-23-2009 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by ochaye
09-23-2009 9:46 AM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
Well, sorry to say, once an individual resorts to equivocation, I typically turn away from the discussion.
If you are going argue over what the "real" definition of specific words are, then you really don't have anything of merit to discuss.
Best wishes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 9:46 AM ochaye has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 175 of 295 (525499)
09-23-2009 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Percy
09-23-2009 1:38 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
quote:
If Becky were here she would likely argue that her Bible camp is an honest reflection of mainstream evangelical beliefs.
Along with a hundred other species of evangelical belief, these days. It's quite the fashion, de rigueur to call oneself evangelical, today. There are evangelicals in works-justification Pentecostalism, Roman Catholicism, Anglo-Catholicism, YEC fundamentalism, in liberalism of every variety, don't y'know. Even the immovable, immutable Eastern Orthodox have made the odd evangelical noise just lately! In the USA, the word has become meaningless, except to people who are theologically aware and adept. Fifty years ago or less, the word was a dirty one, and with the very same people. Sly- not clever. But a mighty compliment to real evangelicals.
Now I've said that, they'll do an about turn! All good fun!
quote:
But the text doesn't talk of "spiritual baptisms."
If the claim is to evangelical belief, it does. 'We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth.' Evangelicalism does not hold to new birth by water baptism- that's a view of Catholicism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 09-23-2009 1:38 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 09-23-2009 4:39 PM ochaye has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 176 of 295 (525520)
09-23-2009 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ochaye
09-23-2009 3:13 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
Hi Ochaye,
As I've already explained, all you evangelicals do the same thing, just as you're doing now. Any evangelical you disagree with you accuse of not being a true evangelical. Were Becky here she'd be telling you that it is you who is not the true evangelical. My, my, who to believe?
ochaye writes:
If the claim is to evangelical belief, it does. 'We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth.' Evangelicalism does not hold to new birth by water baptism- that's a view of Catholicism.
She clearly describes water baptism as being "distinct from the New Birth."
It's nice that you agree that those Bible Camp tactics are poor form, but as to who's the true evangelical, well, why don't you request the other evangelicals here to post that they agree with you that those Bible Camps are a distortion of what evangelicalism truly represents. It wouldn't be definitive, but it would bolster your cause. Of course, I only suggest this because I doubt you'll find many agree with you.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 3:13 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 4:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 178 by kbertsche, posted 09-23-2009 5:04 PM Percy has replied
 Message 181 by cavediver, posted 09-23-2009 5:20 PM Percy has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 177 of 295 (525525)
09-23-2009 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
09-23-2009 4:39 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
quote:
She clearly describes water baptism as being "distinct from the New Birth."
If that is so (and the wording seems ambiguous, imv), it confirms a belief in three baptisms, not two, as is the evangelical and indeed Protestant view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 09-23-2009 4:39 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 178 of 295 (525529)
09-23-2009 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
09-23-2009 4:39 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
quote:
As I've already explained, all you evangelicals do the same thing, just as you're doing now. Any evangelical you disagree with you accuse of not being a true evangelical. Were Becky here she'd be telling you that it is you who is not the true evangelical. My, my, who to believe?
It's nice that you agree that those Bible Camp tactics are poor form, but as to who's the true evangelical, well, why don't you request the other evangelicals here to post that they agree with you that those Bible Camps are a distortion of what evangelicalism truly represents. It wouldn't be definitive, but it would bolster your cause. Of course, I only suggest this because I doubt you'll find many agree with you.
I would view Pentecostals as a branch of Protestant Christianity. Whether or not they should be viewed as Evangelicals is a harder question, and I'm not sure it is very relevant.
But I would agree with Ochaye that Pentecostalism and "Jesus Camp" represent a fringe group and are NOT representative of mainstream Evangelicalism. I stated similar things earlier in this thread; see Message 5 and Message 38.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 09-23-2009 4:39 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by cavediver, posted 09-23-2009 5:13 PM kbertsche has replied
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 09-23-2009 5:29 PM kbertsche has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 179 of 295 (525531)
09-23-2009 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by kbertsche
09-23-2009 5:04 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
But I would agree with Ochaye that Pentecostalism and "Jesus Camp" represent a fringe group and are NOT representative of mainstream Evangelicalism.
Pentecostalism fringe???
This is the Wiki entry for the Assemblies of God, a *SUBSET* of Pentecostals:
quote:
The World Assemblies of God Fellowship or Assemblies of God (AG) is the world's largest Pentecostal Christian denomination. With over 300,000 churches and outstations in over 110 countries and approximately 57 to 60 million adherents worldwide, it is the fourth largest international body of Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by kbertsche, posted 09-23-2009 5:04 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by ochaye, posted 09-23-2009 5:18 PM cavediver has replied
 Message 187 by kbertsche, posted 09-23-2009 9:08 PM cavediver has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 180 of 295 (525533)
09-23-2009 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by cavediver
09-23-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
Size is not relevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by cavediver, posted 09-23-2009 5:13 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by cavediver, posted 09-23-2009 5:23 PM ochaye has replied

  
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