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Author | Topic: Evangelical Indoctrination of Children | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Michamus Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
ochaye writes:
To state a defense of "well they aren't real Christians is a "No True Scotsman Fallacy".
Now my question is, is that Christianity, or something else?
These people obviously believe the conditions stipulated in being titled "Christian", which is: Christian n. -a person who believes in Jesus Christ With that, they are REALLY Christians, regardless of whether or not you agree with the way they go about executing the details of those beliefs. This is off topic anyway.
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Michamus Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
You know, this is a subject that I have put a lot of though into lately.
I honestly think that the threat of hell (or damnation, or outer darkness) is the reason Christianity has maintained it's "popularity" (Islam included). I cannot tell you how many times I have been pondering the question of god(s) existence, and come to the conclusion god does not exist, then only to have been swept up by my memories of "Hell" or even "Not being in Heaven with my family who will be there because they believe". It's a pretty powerful tactic - dare I say strategy? - that gets to the deepest emotions of us humans, that is, our desire to be with our loved ones. This why I have come to the conclusion that Hell and Heaven are obvious constructs of man, created for the sole purpose of control. Regardless of the reasoning, telling children about these horrific things, as if they are fact, when we have no evidence for them other than our imagination is reprehensible. I would even categorize it as child abuse personally.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 762 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
It's a pretty powerful tactic - dare I say strategy? - that gets to the deepest emotions of us humans, that is, our desire to be with our loved ones. My dad was a seminary-trained minister/missionary and a tremendously compassionate man, and he once told me that there is no place in the Bible where we are told we'll be "reunited with our loved ones." It sure does get preached a lot, though.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5266 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:The first two voices that I heard expressed great doubt that the Jesus camp movement was Christian, and both opinions were from claimed Christians, who may have been evangelicals. With this 'off topic' sort of approach, one might be suspected of wanting to bring into disrepute people who have no connexion with those seen on the videos. Such groups might even be each other's opponents. A very serious charge, that would be, and one must give no indication that it might justly apply. It seems a very unsafe way for skeptics to proceed anyway, for intellectual reasons. Identification of those responsible is basic to the topic, unless it is to be conducted as a general gripe against anti-social elements, aside of the religious context. If one is to assess a particular belief, one must examine its underlying character, not accept whatever presents itself as representative of that belief. There are 'countless' species of Marxism, each claiming to represent the true views of Karl Marx, and it would be naive indeed to assess Marxism on the basis of the interpretations, let alone the behaviour, of claimed Marxists. For another thing, one would quickly arrive at incompatible conclusions, considering Marx a prodigious schizoid. And so it is with other beliefs, in particular, Christianity, which is well known for the great variety of interpretation and practice of those laying claim to be its followers. One cannot make a serious study that deserves any respect at all unless one is prepared to carefully scrutinise all manifestations that claim to be Christian that one pronounces upon. In this particular thread, one must establish a common agreement as to what evangelicalism is before one can sensibly assess the video or other real world evidence, as I have mentioned twice already. So there is perhaps very much work to be done in this thread before a meaningful and respectable conclusion can be reached. Now one can perhaps at this stage readily reach agreement that the video evidence is of an undesirable phenomenon, but nothing more than that.
quote: That, however, is not a satisfactory definition, because even those who believe in Jesus Christ do not accept it- and infamously fail to accept it, moreover. No denomination has a statement of faith anything like as brief as that- most run to several pages. And with very good reason. What does the phrase 'believe in' mean? That traditionally evangelical phenomenon, the university Christian union, that normally contains a mixture of members of several Protestant denominations, has a statement of faith of approximately twelve detailed points which must receive assent before membership is permitted. Now whether the people seen on the videos could get membership is difficult to say, but unless one can reach an answer to that sort of question, there can be no progress here. As a video commentator observed, there may be far more 'political entanglement' to Jesus camps than Jesus.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
That, however, is not a satisfactory definition, because even those who believe in Jesus Christ do not accept it- and infamously fail to accept it, moreover. No denomination has a statement of faith anything like as brief as that- most run to several pages. Becky Fischer was once a member of a ministry with the following Statement of Faith
quote: I think most people would be comfortable with that being called a Christian denomination. She started her own ministry Kids in Ministry International, whose statement of faith goes
quote: which again I think everyone would universally describe as Christian. I think the general term for their denomination is Pentecostal, and I believe many would call themselves 'Evangelists' - though according to wiki some prefer 'restorationist'. Of course, different denominations would disagree over what should be believed and how one should act. I think Becky Fischer's camp was run by a Christian group and I think it probably falls under the umbrella of "Evangelical" as Percy probably meant it in the OP. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5266 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:Most rich people, sure! The salient question is, would evangelicals be comfortable with it? Would Protestants be comfortable with it? I don't think so, because neither has ever included 'healing, deliverance, and prosperity for the whole man: spirit, soul, and body' in their historic statements of faith. Prosperity teaching has been highly controversial, and condemned by evangelicals and many besides, including Catholics, as a modern perversion. quote:Again, this is highly controversial, and likewise has been condemned as cultic, by evangelicals particularly, who believe that teaching of two spiritual baptisms is heretical, especially in this form, which strikes at the basis of Protestantism, sola fide. But read what it says. It is highly deceitful (if not highly brainless) to assert that the fruits (i.e. the evidence) of the Holy Spirit is evinced by gifts! It's a hypocrite's charter. No wonder it is small children who listen to this gibberish. Nobody with any theology, anyway, will give it a second glance! Both of these teachings are modern novelties, bred in that hot-house for folly, the USA. Theologians do not take them seriously, any more than Mormonism is taken seriously. If this is the highest level at which the Jesus camp people think, they are not even worth our time, as far as their religious thought is concerned. If these are their beliefs, they are firmly opposed to evangelicalism and Protestantism. With their brain-washing, they are indeed a social menace, and their political inspiration is what needs investigation, because they are incompetents in theology. They were identified as the Religious Right in one of the videos mentioned, and right-wing politics would seem to be their true inspiration. In this they would share the same outlook, and methods, too, as Emperor Constantine, medieval popes and secular rulers, and others subsequently entangled in religion, whose interests were and are entirely mercenary, yet who saw and see fit to fabricate their own versions of Christianity.
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
ochave writes: quote:Most rich people, sure! The salient question is, would evangelicals be comfortable with it? Would Protestants be comfortable with it? I know Mod said "Christian," but I think what you were questioning was whether the people running those Bible camps for kids have mainstream evangelical beliefs, and Mod presented evidence in support of that premise. If Becky were here she would likely argue that her Bible camp is an honest reflection of mainstream evangelical beliefs.
Again, this is highly controversial, and likewise has been condemned as cultic, by evangelicals particularly, who believe that teaching of two spiritual baptisms is heretical... But the text doesn't talk of "spiritual baptisms." You believe in two baptisms, right? One that takes place with water shortly after you're born, and another that takes place later in life when one accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and becomes "born again." Becky didn't say that she considers them both "spiritual baptisms."
If these are their beliefs, they are firmly opposed to evangelicalism and Protestantism. You picked at a few nits, but by and large Becky seems to believe precisely what you believe, but because you don't agree with her approach to Bible camp you're trying to find reasons why she isn't a "real" Christian. We see this type of thinking from evangelicals here all the time - any evangelical they disagree with or who committed some misdeed could not possibly be a "true" Christian. --Percy
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I think most people would be comfortable with that being called a Christian denomination.
Most rich people, sure! The salient question is, would evangelicals be comfortable with it? Would Protestants be comfortable with it? I don't think so, because neither has ever included 'healing, deliverance, and prosperity for the whole man: spirit, soul, and body' in their historic statements of faith. Prosperity teaching has been highly controversial, and condemned by evangelicals and many besides, including Catholics, as a modern perversion. Sounds to me like you are saying that because there are denominations there is no such thing as Christianity. Which, while I essentially agree with it, simply adds unnecessary complication to most discourse.
Theologians do not take them seriously Theologians don't seem to take a lot of lay-beliefs seriously. I'm not sure what that has to do with whether the label 'Christian' or 'evangelical' is an appropriate one.
If these are their beliefs, they are firmly opposed to evangelicalism and Protestantism. With their brain-washing, they are indeed a social menace, and their political inspiration is what needs investigation, because they are incompetents in theology. Whatever you want to call them, it seems that they are one (extreme) example of the kind of thing under discussion (ie., converting children using fear as a tactic).
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Michamus Member (Idle past 5185 days) Posts: 230 From: Ft Hood, TX Joined: |
Well, sorry to say, once an individual resorts to equivocation, I typically turn away from the discussion.
If you are going argue over what the "real" definition of specific words are, then you really don't have anything of merit to discuss. Best wishes.
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5266 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote:Along with a hundred other species of evangelical belief, these days. It's quite the fashion, de rigueur to call oneself evangelical, today. There are evangelicals in works-justification Pentecostalism, Roman Catholicism, Anglo-Catholicism, YEC fundamentalism, in liberalism of every variety, don't y'know. Even the immovable, immutable Eastern Orthodox have made the odd evangelical noise just lately! In the USA, the word has become meaningless, except to people who are theologically aware and adept. Fifty years ago or less, the word was a dirty one, and with the very same people. Sly- not clever. But a mighty compliment to real evangelicals. Now I've said that, they'll do an about turn! All good fun!
quote:If the claim is to evangelical belief, it does. 'We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth.' Evangelicalism does not hold to new birth by water baptism- that's a view of Catholicism.
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Hi Ochaye,
As I've already explained, all you evangelicals do the same thing, just as you're doing now. Any evangelical you disagree with you accuse of not being a true evangelical. Were Becky here she'd be telling you that it is you who is not the true evangelical. My, my, who to believe?
ochaye writes: If the claim is to evangelical belief, it does. 'We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth.' Evangelicalism does not hold to new birth by water baptism- that's a view of Catholicism. She clearly describes water baptism as being "distinct from the New Birth." It's nice that you agree that those Bible Camp tactics are poor form, but as to who's the true evangelical, well, why don't you request the other evangelicals here to post that they agree with you that those Bible Camps are a distortion of what evangelicalism truly represents. It wouldn't be definitive, but it would bolster your cause. Of course, I only suggest this because I doubt you'll find many agree with you. --Percy
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5266 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
quote: If that is so (and the wording seems ambiguous, imv), it confirms a belief in three baptisms, not two, as is the evangelical and indeed Protestant view.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I would view Pentecostals as a branch of Protestant Christianity. Whether or not they should be viewed as Evangelicals is a harder question, and I'm not sure it is very relevant. But I would agree with Ochaye that Pentecostalism and "Jesus Camp" represent a fringe group and are NOT representative of mainstream Evangelicalism. I stated similar things earlier in this thread; see Message 5 and Message 38.
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3670 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
But I would agree with Ochaye that Pentecostalism and "Jesus Camp" represent a fringe group and are NOT representative of mainstream Evangelicalism. Pentecostalism fringe??? This is the Wiki entry for the Assemblies of God, a *SUBSET* of Pentecostals:
quote:
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ochaye Member (Idle past 5266 days) Posts: 307 Joined: |
Size is not relevant.
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