Evangelical Indoctrination of Children

If you want to claim theology applies methods equal in objectivity to those of science then I simply grant your claim for the sake of discussion, because it is irrelevant to the point. Even if your claim were true, the difference between science and theology is that science has an ever growing body of natural phenomena about which there is objective agreement. Theology, on the other hand, is as splintered today as 2000 years ago.This is because science studies things that are real, things that make their existence known to us because they impinge upon our senses. If theology studies anything real, and I'm talking about things like gods and heaven, it has not been established yet, as the multiplicity of worldwide religions attests.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

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If you want to claim theology applies methods equal in objectivity to those of science then I simply grant your claim for the sake of discussion, because it is irrelevant to the point.

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I have earlier agreed that theology and the humanities are somewhat more subjective than science. My disagreement is with dismissive attempts to label theology as "extremely subjective."

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Even if your claim were true, the difference between science and theology is that science has an ever growing body of natural phenomena about which there is objective agreement.

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I agree that there is a difference here. One could argue that theological knowledge also grows as we learn more about ancient languages and cultures. However, the original audience understood all of this and it was subsequently lost.

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Theology, on the other hand, is as splintered today as 2000 years ago.

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The Christian world has become more splintered over the centuries. But I would not characterize theology as "splintered." (Again, I suspect conflation and confusion between theology and Christianity in your comments?)

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This is because science studies things that are real, things that make their existence known to us because they impinge upon our senses.

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I disagree that this is the reason. Science studies plenty of things that we can't be sure are real, and we may never be able to know. We accept many things because they work as models or as conceptual frameworks, but for which we have no ontological evidence. String theory, branes, the Standard Model, etc, are some examples.

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If theology studies anything real, and I'm talking about things like gods and heaven, it has not been established yet, as the multiplicity of worldwide religions attests.

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If by "established" you mean "proven to skeptics beyond reasonable doubt," then I agree with you. But this does not mean that God is not real, or that there is no evidence for His existence.Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

Yes, of course, but put it in historical context. What happened to the canals on Mars or to the observed volcanic activity on the moon? We once thought they might be real, but now we know they are not. This is what I mean by an "ever growing body of natural phenomena about which there is objective agreement."If you have some similar body of theological ideas about which there is increasing objective agreement then please let us know. As far as I am aware, a variety of research approaches ranging from revelatory to scientific have not generated any consensus on any theological topic, even at the most fundamental level about the nature of God, and indeed in some theological quarters even whether God or any gods at all actually exist.--Percy

ochaye writes:

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The absence of a reason for that being difficult gives very good reason to suppose that it is perfectly true that everyone understands the Bible, and more than they want to in many cases.

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Ah, yes. People who aren't Christian are simply willful and spiteful children. They know it's the truth, but they just want to hold their breath until they turn blue while throwing a theological temper tantrum.How insulting. If you cannot show the same respect to people who don't share your beliefs that you demand they show you, why would you possibly expect to have your comments taken seriously?Talk about ad hominem commentary. Do you have any actual point to make or are we about to see yet another string of one-liners pathetically trying to masquerade as discussion?There are literally tens of thousands of sects of Christianity. How can you possibly claim that they "understand the Bible" when the people who actually want to believe it can't agree among themselves what it means?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

Hi Cavediver. And to think, in the early decades of our republic all of the nation's public school kiddies had two required evangelical text books; the Holy Bible and Watt's Hymnal.The late liberal Supreme Court justice Warren said: .Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

As well in the past your republic allowed slavery and limited the rights of women.

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It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

Hi Doc. LOL. Nearly all nations at one time or other have allowed slavery. Your own Canada didn't abolish it until 1803.New Zealand was the first nation to allow women sufferage in 1893.My implicated point went over your head, that wholesale Biblical evangelical indoctrination of children produced a unique free and prosperous republic envied by the rest of the world.Many of the slaves who had godly Biblical Golden Rule oriented owners enjoyed a better life than many pagan cultures afforded, a number of who did not want emacipated.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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People who aren't Christian are simply willful and spiteful children.

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The Bible does not say that. It says that those who reject Christ hate the truth, and by that it means that they hate the truth about themselves. That truth is that they are sinners, i.e. they offend others in their actions and their words. That unwillingness to admit guilt and behave in a decent, civil manner (and the Bible's God wants nothing more than that) might perhaps be said to make them bastard children, but it puts them out of the company of the creator, and into the 'outer darkness' where their guilt and shame will accompany them for eternity.The Bible does say that we are gods, i.e. we have sovereign right to decide our own destinies, based on our attitude to truth. So we can choose to accept our sinful condition, and acknowledge the forgiveness that comes from the cross of Christ; or, we can choose to deny that we do wrong, or admit that we do wrong, but be unwilling to accept that Jesus died for our sakes. In the latter cases, we self-destruct in a blaze of incandescent fire and smoke, because it is a dreadful and momentous thing for a god to destroy himself or herself. The horror and the shame of it may be far too great to express in words.

And the Bible is obviously wrong. Many who do not accept that this first century carpenter was anything more than one of several semi-radical jewish preachers realise that their actions and words do at times offend and cause hardship for others, and they choose to do something proactive to diminish the impact, learn from their 'mistakes', and if it is appropriate seek forgiveness from the injured party. Far more productive than just asking some random deity to 'forgive them' as if it has anything to do with that deity anyway. Christianity is the easiest get-out card in the world for excusing oneself from living up to one's responsibilities. Having spent over two decades of my life as a 'born-again' Christian, I have seen it again and again and again... pathetic.Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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And the Bible is obviously wrong.

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Well, of course it is. That's why monarchs have borrowed (usurped) its authority for two thousand years. It's why there are a thousand 'net threads about it at any one time, and 30 thousand denominations that are still obsessed by it.When someone quickly moves the goalposts, one knows that one has won the match.

Hi Ochave.1. We apologists for the Bible sometimes tend to use a sledge hammer when a medium carpenter's hammer would drive the nail home more nicely without destroying the nail.By the same token, unfortunately some Christ rejectors live a more Biblically prinipled life than many professors of Christianity. Some of them offend less by their actions and words than some who profess Christianity. Some of them act in a more civil and decent manner than some professing Christians.It behooves us who are apologists for the Bible here in a more or less secularist board to word our messages in a non-condescending manner, not forgetting our own deficiencies and faults.There are a number of truth-seekers here at EvC who have not yet professed Christianity. Most of us were there before we came to receive Jesus as lord and savior. Sadly the divorce rate among professing Christians is not much, if any better than that of secularists, for example.2. No place in the Bible does it say we are gods. The implication in the Genesis creation record is that man kind would (like the gods/heavenly entities) become aware of good and evil by eating the fruit of the forbidden tree. The period of innocency would pass.This is not to say that we are not to proclaim Biblical sin, righteousness and judgement, so far as we do it in a manner provoking as little animosity as possible so and so as to avoid doing more damage to Christianity than good. I've had to work on this myself, so as I point the finger, three fingers automatically point toward myself. Edited by Buzsaw, : overlooked misspelling.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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No place in the Bible does it say we are gods.

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'Egw eipa theoi este.''Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?"' Jn 10:34 NIV

Ochave, I don't want to lead off topic here so you might want to check out Psalms 82 which Jesus's statement aluded to. This will put the statement in question in proper perspective. If you wish to persue the topic further, propose a thread and I'll discuss it with you.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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you might want to check out Psalms 82

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I might. But then, maybe I'm not a beginner. The psalm is to be interpreted by the context of Jesus' words, isn't it. Now that stretches the mind a tad, doesn't it? No doubt it really puts the fear of God into the fatuous, overfed slobbering red-neck 'Christians' of the USA who invented this eisegesis, along with other lunacies, but a nice, courteous, clever chap like you won't fall for that, surely.Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

ochaye responds to me:

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People who aren't Christian are simply willful and spiteful children.

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The Bible does not say that. It says that those who reject Christ hate the truth

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You do realize that your second sentence immediately contradicts the first, yes?Consider the possibility that those who reject Christ actually love the truth and consider Christ to not be the truth. After all, two-thirds of the world thinks you're fooling yourself. Why should we take your word over all of them?They are just as sincere as you. They have just as much evidence as you. They can match you up and down the line in every respect. If you wish to have them treat your pet philosophy with any seriousness, then you have to return the favor.

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and by that it means that they hate the truth about themselves.

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Willful, spiteful children. It can't possibly be that they have given it any thought and found Christianity to be ridiculous. There isn't any way they could have had their own experience with the ineffable and come to an independent conclusion that contradicts you. No, you are the only one who knows what is real and what isn't and anybody who contradicts you is self-loathing.

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That truth is that they are sinners

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And they can make the exact same argument to you for rejecting their god. So who are we supposed to believe? Why should anybody pay attention to your rantings when all you do is condemn people to hell?

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i.e. they offend others in their actions and their words.

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And how does that not apply to you? You offend others in your actions and your words. What is going to save you from the wrath of the god that truly exists but in which you don't believe?You've fallen for Pascal's Wager.

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That unwillingness to admit guilt and behave in a decent, civil manner

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And what part of that has escaped you? You have been quite unwilling to admit your guilt and behave in a decent, civil manner. You've just called anybody who doesn't believe what you believe to be a sinner, full of hatred, and condemned them to hell.In direct contradiction to what your own holy text tells you to do. Your simple act of declaring anybody else to be a sinner has condemned you to hell, you know. Mathew 7:2.

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(and the Bible's God wants nothing more than that)

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So why do you defy him at every turn? It is not your place to judge others. God reserves that for himself. You do not know his will and you are in no position to tell others what to do. Remove the plank from your own eye, friend, before you dare to presume to help your brother remove the mote from his.

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might perhaps be said to make them bastard children

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What did you just say about behaving in a decent, civil manner? Are you incapable of any sense of respect? In the end, have you no decency left?

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but it puts them out of the company of the creator, and into the 'outer darkness' where their guilt and shame will accompany them for eternity.

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And what will you do when you find yourself cast into that outer darkness with your guilt and shame for all eternity while they are embraced by the god that truly exists?Remember, every response you have can be matched by those who believe differently than you. So why should anybody respect you when you show absolutely no respect for anybody else?For someone who claims to worship a god of love, you seem to spew an awful lot of spiteful hate.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.