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Author Topic:   Do the religious want scientific enquiry to end?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 17 of 111 (529166)
10-08-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Izanagi
10-08-2009 1:25 PM


Re: Thinking
Ultimately, it is the fundamentalist that wants an end to scientific inquiry, that are constantly driving this issue, that believe that science and religion are incompatible. But ending scientific inquiry robs humanity of its mind.
Fundamentalists don't want you to think, just to believe.
And their shamans will tell you what to believe.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Izanagi, posted 10-08-2009 1:25 PM Izanagi has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 43 of 111 (529224)
10-08-2009 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by slevesque
10-08-2009 4:36 PM


Assumptions
...evolutionists reject their data because they reject the assumptions behind them.
Normally they reject the assumptions because they reject the conclusions and attacking the assumptions is the one place they think they can get some traction.
They equate the word "assumption" with "wrong" without ever showing any details of why that assumption is wrong other than it produces the wrong results--to creationists.
Creation "science" as usual--entirely results driven.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by slevesque, posted 10-08-2009 4:36 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by slevesque, posted 10-08-2009 5:00 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 62 of 111 (529262)
10-08-2009 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by slevesque
10-08-2009 5:00 PM


Re: Assumptions
If you look at my previous post, you will see that I didn't equate assumptions with wrong.
Nor was I picking on you when I responded.
But I have seen some creationists equate "assumptions" with "wrong" or "totally unsupported" or "wild-ass guess" just so they could cast doubt on the conclusions without doing the work to show just how those assumptions were wrong.
If we ever get Cal to a radiocarbon dating page I'm sure you'll see the gamut of typical creationist responses, including this one.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by slevesque, posted 10-08-2009 5:00 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by slevesque, posted 10-08-2009 5:55 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 76 of 111 (574409)
08-15-2010 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 5:31 PM


Re: on honesty.
if you cannot take God's word for creation, the flood etc., thenhow can you take His word for salvation and heaven?
That's your problem, isn't it, and the problem so many true believers face.
But the fact is that the global flood ca. 4,350 years ago has been disproved. True believers, such as yourself, can't admit that though, and go through all sorts of contortions to try and convince themselves that the scientific evidence that is so clear to everyone else in the world is wrong.
Some true believers just wish science would go away and stop disproving their beliefs. You seem to have a different approach; you look at science and deliberately misrepresent, obfuscate, and deny that which is inconvenient.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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 Message 75 by archaeologist, posted 08-15-2010 5:31 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 92 of 111 (575297)
08-19-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by archaeologist
08-19-2010 4:23 AM


Anti-science
But the fact is that the global flood ca. 4,350 years ago has been disproved
That the Biblical Flood ever happened has been refuted.
.
again provide the specific discovery that shows that Noah's flood did not happen.
You are providing a good example of the thread's theme: you don't want scientific inquiry into your beliefs, and simply refuse to believe any scientific facts contrary to your beliefs.
I have provided examples of discoveries that show the flood never happened as described.
--From my own research I have a skeleton in the US dated to 5,300 years ago with mtDNA matching living individuals in the same area. There is another such skeleton dated 10,300 years ago in southern Alaska matching living individuals all along the west coast. If there was a global flood, with only eight survivors in the Middle East, there would be a replacement of mtDNA types between these early individuals and living individuals. We would have Middle Eastern mtDNA types in these two areas instead of the same mtDNA types that were there earlier.
--Taking this same idea farther, there should have been a genetic bottleneck at the time of the flood and all peoples around the world should have mtDNA traceable to about 4,350 years ago, and unrelated to earlier mtDNA types. The pattern we see does not match this at all. Rather we can trace mtDNA back to the original Africans who left that continent, and can even determine what part of Africa the original peoples came from. We can track the changes over time by marker mutations, and this tells the direction and timing of the mutations as well as shows the pattern of migrations.
--Lastly, we do not find evidence of a flood in deposits around 4,350 years of age. It takes only one such instance to disprove the global flood. I have tested over a hundred sites spanning that time period and there was no evidence of a flood--erosional discontinuity or flood sediments--at the appointed time period. We had continuity of deposition, human cultures, and fauna and flora.
Conclusion: no global flood about 4,350 years ago.
Of course, you won't accept this conclusion, as you won't accept much of science. I suspect you would rather science just went away or became, as the Discovery Institute wants, a science "a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions." In other words, the exact opposite of real science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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 Message 81 by archaeologist, posted 08-19-2010 4:23 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 97 of 111 (576720)
08-25-2010 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by archaeologist
08-25-2010 5:49 AM


Unevidenced denials mean nothing
coyote is wrong and his 'research' means nothing
Sounds like the tenet of this thread is true: you care nothing for scientific inquiry.
And my research means nothing, eh? Sorry. Until you can show where the evidence I provided upthread is wrong, the global flood ca. 4,350 years ago is disproved--from my research alone. Then there is the research of tens or hundreds of thousands of other scientists going back 200+ years that also disproves the flood. You have to deal with that evidence too.
It is your unevidenced denial that means nothing.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by archaeologist, posted 08-25-2010 5:49 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 107 of 111 (577842)
08-30-2010 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by archaeologist
08-30-2010 4:46 AM


Of course you want scientific research to end--then you won't have to make up the nonsense you keep presenting us with.
you cannot disprove a global flood and there are several reasons for this:
1. do you know what the global flood evidence looks like? if not, how would you identify it?
We don't need to know what a global flood looks like. What we need to know is what a flood looks like. And that's easy. You saw a picture above from the Channeled Scablands of Washington. There is a ton more evidence of the several floods that hit that region at the end of the last ice age. Those floods can be dated and their extents can be determined.
All we need to disprove a global flood is to examine sediments about 4,350 years old and find undisturbed deposits, with no evidence of a flood event. Just one well-documented example is enough to disprove the global flood at that time, and my own research has included over a hundred sites that contain that approximate time period. No flood at that time in any of them.
2. how deep does one dig? wooley went about 90 feet before discovering virign territory and was forced into renouncing his claim of finding flood evidence.
You just dig deep enough to find deposits of the right age, that is, about 4,350 years ago. Where else would you expect to find evidence telling what happened 4,350 years ago if not in deposits that are 4,350 years old? Forget the Cambrian explosion and geology and the like; all you need is 4,350 year old dirt and you probably have that in your back yard. Why don't you learn some real archaeology and do a little excavation in your back yard and see what you find?
3. if found would it be accepted? wooley is a good example that it would not be.
As usual in science, if you have empirical evidence your claims will eventually be accepted. That's where creationists consistently come up short--they have belief, but no evidence. In fact, their beliefs are contradicted by the evidence!
4. construction of cities, wars, local floods, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, tornados, earthquakes, erosion and so on, all have their hand in destroying evidence, thus we are back to #s 1 & 2.
{for erosion effects see Kitchens The Bible in Its world, pg. 10; fo rthe rest read your history books}
None of this would significantly effect the vast deposits left from a global flood in recent historic times.
5. secular science is so limited that it cannot tell someone what they had for breakfast last week let alone what took place 3-4,000 years ago. the tools are faulty.
The analogy is faulty. We can tell a great deal about what happened 3-4,000 years ago. You just don't want to hear about it.
And I'm sure you'd rather science stopped investigating the subject, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by archaeologist, posted 08-30-2010 4:46 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 110 of 111 (579171)
09-03-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
08-30-2010 6:42 PM


No flood
Of course the Biblical Flood myths can be shown to be false, and have been shown to be false and you have been given the evidence that shows that the Biblical Flood myths are false.
The problem is that you seem to discount science when it shows the Bible Interpretation you worship is false.
You seem to want to discount science when it conflicts with the God you created and worship.
And I have presented archaeological evidence in several threads now disproving the belief in a global flood about 4,350 years ago. Some of this is from my own research. It's easy to find evidence disproving the flood story. Thousands of archaeologists and other -ologists have been doing so for 200 or more years.
But "archaeologist" doesn't want to accept the research of real archaeologists.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 08-30-2010 6:42 PM jar has not replied

  
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