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Author Topic:   The moons, eclipses, and timing
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 46 of 112 (530236)
10-12-2009 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by mark24
10-11-2009 6:30 AM


Re: Serious subjects
Thanks, anglagard, just wondering what all the sky darkening is in the OP.
Anglagard was in error.
Perhaps the darkness was due to...clouds?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by mark24, posted 10-11-2009 6:30 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by mark24, posted 10-12-2009 11:36 PM Calypsis4 has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 47 of 112 (530238)
10-12-2009 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Coragyps
10-10-2009 10:00 PM


Re: Question for Calypsis
Cal, what sort of event caused this darkening of the sun in 33 AD?
I am not certain.
I don't regard "the will of God" as much of an answer
That's because you've never seen the supernatural power of God. But I and many of my Christian companions have. We know what He can do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Coragyps, posted 10-10-2009 10:00 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 48 of 112 (530248)
10-12-2009 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Calypsis4
10-12-2009 6:19 PM


Re: Serious subjects
....you will find on the second notation 0033 Apr 03 as it concerns the crucifixion of Christ.
And you'll also find there that this eclipse was essentially unobservable from the Levant, what with being either at the point of umbral exit (U4) or penumbral at the time of moonrise there - which is within minutes of sunset during a lunar eclipse. In my experience, a penumbral eclipse is pretty non-obvious even in a dark sky, let alone at twilight.
That, and you have no extrabiblical evidence that this Jesus was crucified at all, let alone in 33 CE. And why is that that Mark and John disagree about the day, when they both are allegedly Inspired?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Calypsis4, posted 10-12-2009 6:19 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Calypsis4, posted 10-12-2009 6:56 PM Coragyps has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 49 of 112 (530253)
10-12-2009 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Coragyps
10-12-2009 6:43 PM


Re: Serious subjects
That, and you have no extrabiblical evidence that this Jesus was crucified at all, let alone in 33 CE. And why is that that Mark and John disagree about the day, when they both are allegedly Inspired
You are in error. The multiple testimony of witnesses as found in the scriptures testifies of it. Josephus the historian testifies of Jesus existence and our entire dating system is based on His birth.
There is no contradiction between Mark and John. But you are welcome to point out what you feel is an error and I will answer you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Coragyps, posted 10-12-2009 6:43 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Coragyps, posted 10-12-2009 7:21 PM Calypsis4 has replied
 Message 51 by ZenMonkey, posted 10-12-2009 8:32 PM Calypsis4 has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 50 of 112 (530258)
10-12-2009 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Calypsis4
10-12-2009 6:56 PM


Re: Serious subjects
The multiple testimony of witnesses as found in the scriptures testifies of it.
You have addresses or last names for any of 'em?
Your eclipse was unobservable from Jerusalem! You aren't going to respond to that, are you?

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Calypsis4, posted 10-12-2009 6:56 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Calypsis4, posted 10-12-2009 8:44 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


(1)
Message 51 of 112 (530271)
10-12-2009 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Calypsis4
10-12-2009 6:56 PM


Re: Serious subjects
Calypsis4 writes:
Josephus the historian testifies of Jesus existence ...
No, what Josephus can most reliably attest to is the existence of a group of people who called themselves Christians and that they believed Jesus to have been resurrected. The relevant passage, the Testimonium Flavianum, reads as follows:
quote:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to call him a man.] For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. [He was the Christ.] When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. [On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
The bracketed sections are parts that many scholars (e.g. Yamauchi and Meier, from whom this is indirectly taken) believe to be later interpolations by Christians trying to crank up the volume, so to speak. I agree that it seems unlikely for a Jew like Josephus to refer to someone as the Messiah and yet not make a bigger deal of it.
(By the way, I took this selection from the CARM website, hardly an atheist source.)
Anyway, the point is that one has to distinguish between primary testimony and secondary testimony. Josephus isn't attesting to what he knows firsthand; he's testifying about what other people believe. Likewise, some Christians claim 500 eyewitness accounts of the resurrected Jesus. They are mistaken. What they have is one person saying that there are 500 witnesses. Quite a different thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Calypsis4, posted 10-12-2009 6:56 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Calypsis4, posted 10-12-2009 8:48 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 52 of 112 (530277)
10-12-2009 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Coragyps
10-12-2009 7:21 PM


Re: Serious subjects
You have addresses or last names for any of 'em?
Sure do. Same address that I have for the verification of Julius Caesar who was emperor of Rome; that Charlemagne was head of the 'Holy Roman Empire'; that Henry VII was king of England in 1525; that Napolean Bonaparte won the battle of Liepzig. It's all a part of A-1 historical sources by multiple witnesses. However, the scriptures, unlike the less than dozen legitimate sources that Ceasar was emperor of Rome, has over 5,000 extant manuscripts, fragments of which go right back to the first century.
To put it simply, the existent Greek texts that are scattered in museums and churches all over the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Coragyps, posted 10-12-2009 7:21 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 53 of 112 (530280)
10-12-2009 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ZenMonkey
10-12-2009 8:32 PM


Re: Serious subjects
No, what Josephus can most reliably attest to is the existence of a group of people who called themselves Christians and that they believed Jesus to have been resurrected
Sort of like Edward Gibbon was to the "Rise & Fall of the Roman Empire"...right?
The thing you quoted is in question only among skeptics like you, not among the historians who have turned to Josephus countless times throughout the history of Christianity.
Likewise, some Christians claim 500 eyewitness accounts of the resurrected Jesus. They are mistaken. What they have is one person saying that there are 500 witnesses
From a highly respected man who converted people even within Caesar's household and died for what he believed in. I believe him, not you nor anyone of your persuasion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ZenMonkey, posted 10-12-2009 8:32 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 54 of 112 (530315)
10-12-2009 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Calypsis4
10-12-2009 6:20 PM


Re: Serious subjects
Calypsis,
Perhaps the darkness was due to...clouds?
Wow! How unlikely is that! Jesus dies on a day with clouds, it must be true!
You are way, way to credulous when it comes to what you will accept as evidence in support of your views & exactly the opposite when it comes to what doesn't. Special pleading....
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Calypsis4, posted 10-12-2009 6:20 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Calypsis4, posted 10-15-2009 10:54 AM mark24 has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 55 of 112 (530868)
10-15-2009 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by mark24
10-12-2009 11:36 PM


Re: Serious subjects
You are way, way to credulous when it comes to what you will accept as evidence in support of your views & exactly the opposite when it comes to what doesn't. Special pleading.
What an idiotic statement. I gave four lines of evidence for the historical accuracy of the crucifixion of Christ and like his comrades in unbelief, he passes it off so lightly as if it were nothing. The (1) prophetic utterances, (2) the independent witnesses, (3) the corroboration of eyewitnesses, & (4) the confirmation of natural phenomena by computer analysis on eclipses.
His attitude is just typical of those whose minds are prejudiced against a supernatural world that was created by a supernatural, all-powerful Creator God and that His eternal decree blueprinted the events and occurrences of our world.
For the rest of you (who might know how to think) the answer is either cloud cover made things so dark that that it the way things appeared, but since the matter was experienced hundreds of miles away by other witnesses it is not likely it was cloud cover. It was probably a supernatural event. But how can we know for certain? I only know it was not a solar eclipse because a lunar eclipse was in progress at the time and the such events are always separated by at least two weeks.
[thumb=100]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/Martyrs5/CA6PP4X7.jpg[/thumb=100]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by mark24, posted 10-12-2009 11:36 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 10-15-2009 11:28 AM Calypsis4 has replied
 Message 59 by mark24, posted 10-15-2009 12:40 PM Calypsis4 has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 56 of 112 (530876)
10-15-2009 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Calypsis4
10-15-2009 10:54 AM


Re: Serious subjects
(1) prophetic utterances
Prophesising something will happen does not mean it happened. The prophecies you cited are vague. All Joel says, for example, is that sun will turn to darkness and the moon will turn red - he doesn't say this will be the day that Jesus is crucified AND the day that Jesus was crucified was not a day of a full lunar eclipse, there was partial lunar eclipse that would have been seen by very few people and would not have turned the moon red.
(2) the independent witnesses, (3) the corroboration of eyewitnesses
The witnesses attest that there was some kind of sun darkening. I don't think anybody has spent much time contesting this.
the confirmation of natural phenomena by computer analysis on eclipses.
Yes we know there was a partial eclipse visible to various marine life in the Atlantic ocean. We also know that eclipses during Passover are fairly common since Passover is always at a full moon.
I gave four lines of evidence for the historical accuracy of the crucifixion of Christ and like his comrades in unbelief, he passes it off so lightly as if it were nothing.
Sorry - what did you expect? You told us some people predicted some things which are only vaguely related to the story of Jesus in a similar way that horoscopes are related to my life. You gave us some predictions about strange phenomena occurring at a vague time. You tell us there was an eclipse (which turns out to be partial and not visible in the Middle East) and there is some evidence for some strange sun darkening event.
Why should accept that this has anything to do with being evidence for historical accuracy of the execution of a specific apocolyptic Jew in the first century?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Calypsis4, posted 10-15-2009 10:54 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Calypsis4, posted 10-15-2009 11:46 AM Modulous has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 57 of 112 (530880)
10-15-2009 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Modulous
10-15-2009 11:28 AM


Re: Serious subjects
Prophesising something will happen does not mean it happened.
But the foretelling of the lunar eclipse was prophesied (Joel 2:31) and it occurred as he said it would as verified by Peter who was an eyewitness (Acts 2:20).
The witnesses attest that there was some kind of sun darkening. I don't think anybody has spent much time contesting this.
Then why bother replying on this point? Why not regard those witnesses as corroborating evidence as it should be?
Yes we know there was a partial eclipse visible to various marine life in the Atlantic ocean
It was enough of an eclipse that people in Israel saw it. Again, it was a supernatural event. Leaving Almighty God out of the equation is always the great fault of skeptics like you. But those of us who have seen his power know what He can do. When Christ returns to earth 'every eye shall see him' no matter from what location on earth that coming is viewed by human eyes.
Sorry - what did you expect? You told us some people predicted some things which are only vaguely related to the story of Jesus in a similar way that horoscopes are related to my life.
You are the one who will be sorry. You missed the significance of the life and death of the most important person who ever lived on this planet. That's really too bad.
By the way, the prophecy of Daniel foretelling the exact time of Christ's death is not vague. You just don't care enough to find out how accurate he really was.
Edited by Calypsis4, : addition

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 10-15-2009 11:28 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Coragyps, posted 10-15-2009 12:34 PM Calypsis4 has replied
 Message 89 by Modulous, posted 10-16-2009 8:35 AM Calypsis4 has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 58 of 112 (530889)
10-15-2009 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Calypsis4
10-15-2009 11:46 AM


Re: Serious subjects
and it occurred as he said it would as verified by Peter who was an eyewitness (Acts 2:20)
Really! Acts 2:20 is written, after the Day of Pentecost and so post-resurrection, in the future tense, Cal:
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:"
And according to your NASA source, the lunar eclipse, which was at best marginally observable from the Mideast, didn't occur until sunset, when the crucifiction was a done deal. Pretty shaky "prophecy" if you ask me.
And I'll warrant that you disbelieve the Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBUHHH!). You'll be the sorry one, when you're eating boiled turnips with no salt or butter while we, The Righteous, are eating ham-and-pineapple pizza with Great Rejoicing!!

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Calypsis4, posted 10-15-2009 11:46 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Calypsis4, posted 10-15-2009 1:04 PM Coragyps has replied
 Message 85 by hooah212002, posted 10-15-2009 8:11 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 59 of 112 (530892)
10-15-2009 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Calypsis4
10-15-2009 10:54 AM


Re: Serious subjects
Calypsis,
he passes it off so lightly as if it were nothing.
It is nothing. You are claiming a lunar eclipse happened, & one of your own sources states a solar eclipse occurred at the same time, clearly impossible.
(3) the corroboration of eyewitnesses
What eyewitnesses were there that allegedly saw this solar eclipse? Your OP doesn't cite any.
the confirmation of natural phenomena by computer analysis on eclipses
A solar & a lunar eclipse at the same time is impossible.
prophetic utterances
What prophetic utterances prophesised that the sky would go dark when Jesus was killed?
It was probably a supernatural event.
Right, so you're trying to "prove" the crucifixion of Christ by claiming another supernatural event demonstrates it? Riiiiight.
For the record, & just to bring you back to reality, Calypsis, you are attempting to show us that the alignment/coincidence of natural events was indicative of Jesus crucifixion. Invoking untestable supernatural events to prove a supernatural event doesn't count.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Calypsis4, posted 10-15-2009 10:54 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Calypsis4, posted 10-15-2009 1:06 PM mark24 has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5213 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 60 of 112 (530897)
10-15-2009 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Coragyps
10-15-2009 12:34 PM


Re: Serious subjects
Really! Acts 2:20 is written, after the Day of Pentecost and so post-resurrection, in the future tense, Cal:
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:"
The event is one of a double fulfillment. It occurred in the past and will occur just prior to the 2nd coming of Christ. Double fulfillment is seen often in scripture, just as is the case concerning the two advents.
The coming of Elijah was spoken of as preceding the 'day of the Lord' which involves both the 1st advent and 2nd advent of Christ in the world. John the Baptist fulifilled the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6 according to Jesus who described him as "Elijah" IF ( I stress the word "IF") the Jews would receive his message. They did not, so the kingdom was postponed until a later time. That time is yet to come and Elijah will be revealed before the coming of Christ. It has a double fulfillment.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And IF ye will receive it, this is Elias(Elijah), which was for to come.
Matthew 11:13-14.
And according to your NASA source, the lunar eclipse, which was at best marginally observable from the Mideast, didn't occur until sunset, when the crucifiction was a done deal. Pretty shaky "prophecy" if you ask me.
You weren't there. The Jews who saw it were. When Peter later brought this fact to the attention of the unbelieving Jews in public they did not argue with him.(Acts 2:37)
The point is that had not Christ died according to the foretelling of that death and risen from the dead, corroborating his own veracity, then Christianity would not even exist in our day.
P.S. Your 'invisible pink unicorn' doesn't answer personal prayer. The God that I serve does. Often.
Edited by Calypsis4, : additions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Coragyps, posted 10-15-2009 12:34 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Coragyps, posted 10-15-2009 1:26 PM Calypsis4 has not replied
 Message 86 by hooah212002, posted 10-15-2009 8:29 PM Calypsis4 has not replied

  
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