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Author Topic:   Is God Evil?
Wotak
Junior Member (Idle past 5255 days)
Posts: 13
From: Detroit, MI
Joined: 10-25-2009


(2)
Message 1 of 179 (532707)
10-25-2009 9:49 PM


Allow me to first state that I am a pretty agnostic fellow. I don't hold a strong belief that there is or isn't a God. I do however believe that if there is a God, he is one very evil being. I base this belief on the Bible itself. I have no strong belief one way or the other that this book is indeed the word of God, or that it isn't. For the sake of this discussion, I will assume that it is and that the overwhelming majority of Christians believe that it is. With that being pretty much an undisputed fact, let's examine the words and work of what I believe to be (if he exists) the most evil being/entity/god that humanity has ever known.
*GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God believes that man has gone wicked and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth. Only Noah's family and two of each animal are spared.
Ok, if this is true, then God is, by FAR, the biggest mass murderer known to man. Just thinking of all those poor infants and children who were drowned in this story makes me feel a little ill. How could any being drown little children and infants and consider that a good thing to do?
*EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.
Again, more mass murder. It's almost as if this being treats humans with the same regard that humans treat cockroaches. How can this being be considered loving and perfect while committing such atrocities? Who in their right mind would worship or praise such a being except to go through the motions out of sheer terror for their own lives and the lives of their children? How could this type of behavior be considered love?
*EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.
Ok, more baby killing. What is it with this evil being and his apparent disregard for the lives of helpless infants and children?
*EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.
Now this one sounds as if it's right out of a plot from a Mob movie. God ok's the hit and Amalek and his people all get wacked by Joshua. First of all, why didn't God just do the killing himself? He's already shown that mass murder is something that he adept at, why send in a hit-man to do the job?
*EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.
Ok, so ordering hits isn't good enough. Now this loving God is demanding that human slaves should not only be killed by their human owners but that to be done correctly in his eyes they must be slowly tortured to death. Now that's just plain evil.
*EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
Now, the human race is guilty of some atrocities of its own but this one just just confounds me. God has already proven that he can and will dispatch millions of humans on his own, quickly and easily... so why is it that he needs an army to kill everything in sight? What is he to gain by not just adding a few million more notches to his own murder belt?
*EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.
Just like that, 3000 men are rubber stamped for death and killed. Heck, the 911 terrorists killed less than that and we consider their actions evil. How could anyone in their right mind not consider this being an evil entity?
*LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."
Sheesh, now he's gone and sent in the wildlife to kill the poor, innocent children. What kind of being sends carnivore after our children? That's just plain Evil Evil.
*LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.
Oh my goodness. Now he has us eating our own children. This takes evil to an entire new level.
*NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.
Alright God, now you're just being petty. You order people to slowly bludgeon a poor dude to death with stones because he picked up a few sticks on a Sunday? Are you kidding me? The guy picked up a few sticks, he didn't have homosexual relations with a child on an alter or something. It was sticks, he picked them up for Christs sake. You're just out of control, dude.
*NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.
*NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.
*NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.
Angry, angry guy this God is, no? I mean, did he create humans just so he would have something to kill? It sure seems that way. Dead people everywhere. How does this being even remotely get mistaken for a all good entity?
*NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.
*NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.
Wow, another 56K dead, just like that. This God entity has turned into a Holy Terror if you ask me.
*NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...."
More dead kids and women. If that's not pure, unbridled evil - I don't know what is.
It goes on and on like this... Heck one million Ethiopians were killed. One million. Some estimate that God killed well over two million people who's deaths were documented in the Bible. Others estimate many more but for the sake of this discussion I'll use the conservative estimate. And that's just what was documented in the "good book". I'm sure there were some that didn't make the list judging by the warpath this entity was on.
I mean, this isn't a few kittens being drowned in a burlap sack evil. This is evil on a scale almost unheard of on this planet. How can there even be a question as to the pure evilness of this being?
I mean, come on, Satan was only rumored to have killed like 10 people in the Bible, and even those 10 had to be approved by God first. How is it that he got such a bad rap in the Bible? The Bible, Gods own word, tells us that you are a few hundred thousand time more likely to have your wife, children and even yourself killed by him than you are by the bad guy in the story. Wait, what? How does that make any sense to anyone?
Hitler killed between 5 and 6 million Jews. Most human beings consider him evil without debate. Am I to then surmise that had God killed 5 million humans rather than just a measly 2.5 million that he too would be considered an evil mass murderer?
So I ask you: How can God not be considered one of the evilest beings ever known to the human race?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 10-26-2009 6:35 AM Wotak has not replied
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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 179 (532738)
10-26-2009 5:49 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Is God Evil? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 179 (532741)
10-26-2009 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wotak
10-25-2009 9:49 PM


Wotak writes:
Ok, if this is true, then God is, by FAR, the biggest mass murderer known to man. Just thinking of all those poor infants and children who were drowned in this story makes me feel a little ill. How could any being drown little children and infants and consider that a good thing to do?
Hi Wotak and welcome to EvC.
Murder is generally considered an 'unrighteous killing'. But on what basis can God killing be deemed unrighteous: he's only taking back something that;
a) belongs to him
b) he's promised he'll take back
..to whit, a human life. Surely you have no objection to God doing what he likes with his own property - especially if it's what he's promised to do with it?
Now if God is acting righteously (assuming you can't pose a means whereby he isn't acting so), how can what he does be considered evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wotak, posted 10-25-2009 9:49 PM Wotak has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Larni, posted 10-26-2009 6:49 AM iano has replied
 Message 5 by Modulous, posted 10-26-2009 6:59 AM iano has replied
 Message 6 by Huntard, posted 10-26-2009 8:26 AM iano has replied
 Message 41 by Evlreala, posted 10-26-2009 4:50 PM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 179 (532742)
10-26-2009 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
10-26-2009 6:35 AM


So if I have a child I reserve the right to take that life away?
What you are saying is that we are your gods possessions and he can do with us as he pleases and we should praise his name as he condemns the tiny children to short brutal lives of pain and misery and it is his right to do so.
Really Iano? Really?
Edited by Larni, : second paragraph

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 10-26-2009 6:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 8:44 AM Larni has replied
 Message 25 by iano, posted 10-26-2009 12:02 PM Larni has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 179 (532743)
10-26-2009 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
10-26-2009 6:35 AM


Murder is generally considered an 'unrighteous killing'. But on what basis can God killing be deemed unrighteous: he's only taking back something that;
a) belongs to him
German purity and the lives of the Jews that refused to leave the Reich belonged to Hitler and the German Volk.
b) he's promised he'll take back
Hitler promised he'd solve the Jewish problem.
Surely you have no objection to God doing what he likes with his own property
Yes - I have objections to anybody doing what they like with their own (claimed) property when it comes into contention with other rights and freedoms of other beings. If you want to torture your dog, or your child or detonate your nuclear bomb...I'm going to object.
Iano - your argument must devolve into: What God does defines what is right (or is by defition right), therefore you can't say it is evil. This can be said of any person or being, making the argument simply a case of special pleading. Is Yahweh evil? I think that anybody who kills 15,000 people who have the gall to complain about how harsh they have been is pretty much up there with the worst of them. The only moral system in which it is not evil is the one where whatever Yahweh does is good. Agreed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 10-26-2009 6:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by iano, posted 10-26-2009 12:52 PM Modulous has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 6 of 179 (532750)
10-26-2009 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
10-26-2009 6:35 AM


Iano writes:
Hi Wotak and welcome to EvC.
Murder is generally considered an 'unrighteous killing'. But on what basis can God killing be deemed unrighteous: he's only taking back something that;
a) belongs to him
b) he's promised he'll take back
..to whit, a human life. Surely you have no objection to God doing what he likes with his own property - especially if it's what he's promised to do with it?
Now if God is acting righteously (assuming you can't pose a means whereby he isn't acting so), how can what he does be considered evil?
So, when I have a dog (which is my property), and I've promised I was gonna torture it for seven years straight, and then did it, that would make me a good person in your book?

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 10-26-2009 6:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 9:09 AM Huntard has replied
 Message 33 by iano, posted 10-26-2009 1:30 PM Huntard has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 7 of 179 (532752)
10-26-2009 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wotak
10-25-2009 9:49 PM


What Really Happened?
quote:
Allow me to first state that I am a pretty agnostic fellow. I don't hold a strong belief that there is or isn't a God. I do however believe that if there is a God, he is one very evil being. I base this belief on the Bible itself. I have no strong belief one way or the other that this book is indeed the word of God, or that it isn't. For the sake of this discussion, I will assume that it is and that the overwhelming majority of Christians believe that it is. With that being pretty much an undisputed fact, let's examine the words and work of what I believe to be (if he exists) the most evil being/entity/god that humanity has ever known.
Welcome to EvC.
For the sake of discussion we are assuming that God exists, the Bible is the word of God, and the events in the book happened as written, correct?
That said, God is a supreme being who can do what he wants when he wants. Good, bad, or ugly. He can easily put aside destructive behaviors and love everybody or at the very least everyone who believes?
How evil is he compared to other gods?
Eris - Goddess of Discord.
She is insatiable in her desire for bloodshed, and after all the other gods have withdrawn from the battle-field, she still remains rejoicing over the havoc that has been made.
Ares - God of War.
Ares, on the other hand, is nothing but the personification of bold force and strength, and not so much the god of war as of its tumult, confusion, and horrors.
Monotheism places all characteristics on one god, whereas polytheism spreads them out to many gods.
So what is your point? Supreme beings can't do what they want?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wotak, posted 10-25-2009 9:49 PM Wotak has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 8 of 179 (532755)
10-26-2009 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
10-26-2009 6:49 AM


The Book of God
quote:
So if I have a child I reserve the right to take that life away?
Nope, you're not a supreme being. Remember, we are talking about God, a supreme being, not humans.
quote:
What you are saying is that we are your gods possessions and he can do with us as he pleases and we should praise his name as he condemns the tiny children to short brutal lives of pain and misery and it is his right to do so.
That's what the book implies. God brought us into this world and he can take us out.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Larni, posted 10-26-2009 6:49 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 10-26-2009 8:46 AM purpledawn has replied
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Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 179 (532756)
10-26-2009 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
10-26-2009 8:44 AM


Re: The Book of God
So what is your point? Supreme beings can't do what they want?
I think the point is that the Supreme being is being evil rather than good.
That's what the book implies. God brought us into this world and he can take us out.
And I would suggest that it would be an evil thing to do to a sentient being.
Edited by Larni, : First point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 8:44 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 9:43 AM Larni has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 179 (532759)
10-26-2009 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Huntard
10-26-2009 8:26 AM


God to Humans
quote:
So, when I have a dog (which is my property), and I've promised I was gonna torture it for seven years straight, and then did it, that would make me a good person in your book?
You're not a supreme being.
I find it interesting that when assumptions are made that God exists, the Bible is the word of God, and the events actually happened; the opposition goes straight to human behavior.
The thread is about God's behavior thousands of years ago, not what we think of humans who would do the same thing today.
What was the point of the deaths according to the Bible?
What is a supreme being allowed to do? Anything he wants!

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Huntard, posted 10-26-2009 8:26 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Huntard, posted 10-26-2009 9:23 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 11 of 179 (532761)
10-26-2009 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
10-26-2009 9:09 AM


Re: God to Humans
purpledawn writes:
You're not a supreme being.
And? The only two points Iano mentioned were that something needed to be your porperty, and that you should've made a promise to do something to it. But what you're saying is that when I was a supreme being, I'd be a good one for doing exactly what i described in my response to Iano?
I find it interesting that when assumptions are made that God exists, the Bible is the word of God, and the events actually happened; the opposition goes straight to human behavior.
Ok, then, same question to you, only this time, I'm a supreme being. I torture the dog for seven years, am I now a good supreme being?
What is a supreme being allowed to do? Anything he wants!
Actually, no he isn't. Not if he claims to be a good being.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 9:09 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 9:59 AM Huntard has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 179 (532763)
10-26-2009 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Larni
10-26-2009 8:46 AM


Re: The Book of God
quote:
I think the point is that the Supreme being is being evil rather than good.
He can't be both? The Israelites felt God was harsh at times and generous at times. Their God covered both sides. (Reality: this was before the concept that God was all good and no evil.)
How much killing took place in the NT by God?
quote:
And I would suggest that it would be an evil thing to do to a sentient being.
As most Christians would also, but it is a correct answer per the book.
Most Christians would look at the stories in the OT and consider the violence to be distasteful and overkill in many cases, but that is not the God that Christians know today. They have good guy Jesus.
IMO, it is better served for individuals to understand the purpose of the stories, exaggerations and all.
Harry Potter isn't about the magic, it's about the story.
The OT isn't about the violence it's about the story.
In reality, how many of these deaths actually occurred in the OT?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 10-26-2009 8:46 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Larni, posted 10-26-2009 10:14 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 43 by Evlreala, posted 10-26-2009 5:05 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 13 of 179 (532766)
10-26-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Huntard
10-26-2009 9:23 AM


Re: God to Humans
quote:
And? The only two points Iano mentioned were that something needed to be your porperty, and that you should've made a promise to do something to it. But what you're saying is that when I was a supreme being, I'd be a good one for doing exactly what i described in my response to Iano?
He was talking about God, who is a supreme being, not a general answer concerning anything. (Reality: In those days people (not just Hebrews) probably were allowed to do what they wanted with what they owned, women and children included.)
quote:
Ok, then, same question to you, only this time, I'm a supreme being. I torture the dog for seven years, am I now a good supreme being?
The OP made assumptions. You being a supreme being is not one of them. You want a real answer to a fictional question with no foundation.
quote:
Actually, no he isn't. Not if he claims to be a good being.
Where does God claim to be good in the OT?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Huntard, posted 10-26-2009 9:23 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Huntard, posted 10-26-2009 10:10 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 16 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-26-2009 10:30 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 14 of 179 (532767)
10-26-2009 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by purpledawn
10-26-2009 9:59 AM


Re: God to Humans
purpledawn writes:
He was talking about God, who is a supreme being, not a general answer concerning anything. (Reality: In those days people (not just Hebrews) probably were allowed to do what they wanted with what they owned, women and children included.)
Does this make it good to do so?
The OP made assumptions. You being a supreme being is not one of them. You want a real answer to a fictional question with no foundation.
Ok, fine, if god did it, then would you consider him good for doing so?
Where does God claim to be good in the OT?
So, you're agreeing god is not good?

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 9:59 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 11:48 AM Huntard has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 15 of 179 (532769)
10-26-2009 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
10-26-2009 9:43 AM


Re: The Book of God
In reality, how many of these deaths actually occurred in the OT?
Well obviously no one died as a result of the Yawehs' actions in reality but for the sake of argument we have to grant his existance for this discussion to even take place.
The point remains that his actions are evil and it does not matter that he is in charge.
I would suggest that his actions serve no one apart from himself and this is selfish.
I would suggest that his actions cause extreme pain and misery for many people and this is cruel.
You cannot say he gets a free pass because he holds all the cards. I would hazard that he has an obligation to his creations to treat them in a manner that causes least pain.
His ability to foresee how his nasty little experiments turns out means that he does not have to put people through all the grief he has.
He tortures people because he can.
No other reason.
That's evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 9:43 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 10-26-2009 11:11 AM Larni has replied
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