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Author Topic:   Is God Evil?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 151 of 179 (534107)
11-05-2009 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by hooah212002
11-05-2009 1:08 AM


Re: double post
hooah212002 writes:
All because of ONE apple? mankind is doomed...because of ONE apple. I don't get how you all can wrap your head around that.
the first people EVER created....ate ONE apple.......now........ALL of us are doomed to "sin".
sin is genetic...its a flaw that is passed on
but to be doomed would mean to have no hope of getting out of this condition...God has provided a means of getting out of this condition

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 1:08 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 2:13 AM Peg has replied
 Message 153 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 2:21 AM Peg has replied
 Message 166 by Wotak, posted 11-05-2009 8:36 AM Peg has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 152 of 179 (534108)
11-05-2009 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Peg
11-05-2009 1:16 AM


Re: double post
The fact that you are OK with everyone in the entire human race that ever existed suffering for what gods very first creation did, baffles me.
The fact that it seems as though god uses this as an excuse, baffles me. Why not start over? why make all of humanity inevitably suffer because his FIRST creation screwed up? Seems a bit, i don't know, pedantic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Peg, posted 11-05-2009 1:16 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Peg, posted 11-05-2009 5:50 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 153 of 179 (534109)
11-05-2009 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Peg
11-05-2009 1:16 AM


look at it through parent/child eyes
Look at it this way:
let's say you are a mother of 8 kids, all are 2 years apart(just a hypothetical quick scenario). Your firstborn disobeys you by eating something they are not suppose to. Do you punish every child thereafter for that mishap? or do you allow them to earn your distrust by making their own mistakes? Do you allow an evil stranger in your home who you KNOW will tempt them to eat said food?
I just really can't understand the rationale behind everyone suffering/being born into sin....because of ONE person.
Edited by hooah212002, : spelled "rationale" wrong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Peg, posted 11-05-2009 1:16 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Peg, posted 11-05-2009 6:05 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 154 of 179 (534119)
11-05-2009 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Peg
11-04-2009 11:51 PM


Adam was a man proably older then yourself. He was over 100 years old when he was expelled from Eden. So he lived long enough to know that snakes, which he himself named, didnt talk. The fact is that Adam was not decieved by the snake.
Where in the Bible does it say Adam was over 100 years old when he was expelled? Are you sure you are not making this up?

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Peg, posted 11-04-2009 11:51 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Peg, posted 11-05-2009 6:28 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 155 of 179 (534121)
11-05-2009 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by cavediver
11-04-2009 7:03 AM


Balancing the see-saw of choice.
cavediver writes:
A&E are newly created beings - we are in no position to judge their sense when it comes to them asking the right questions. But God is a whole different ball-game. Why did he allow Satan in the garden? And why were they not warned?
It would appear that Satan is permitted into the garden in order to provide the other half of the choice facing them. To put some flesh on it's bones as it were.
A&E understood English (). That is to say, they had an idea of the concepts that lay behind words. So we can suppose they were in possession of some or other concept attaching to the word "die". And it would appear that the concept they (rather she) attached to that word had negative connotations. That the concept of her dying acted towards constraining her. Listen to her.
quote:
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
For those tempted to gloss over the restraint signalled by this tiny word 'but' I'd point to the age old equivocation "I love you ...but.."
So we have a pull in the one direction: a restraining effect placed on Eve by the promised-by-God consequence of disobedience. That she understood the word ' die' is evidenced by a) her understanding English b) her signalling it's restraining effect on her.
And we have a pull in the other direction: the temptation of the serpent - permitted into the garden by God.
And so we have a choice. Although it's impossible for us to weigh up the power of the restraint and the power of the temptation the argument is that the choice was balanced. And so the consequences earned are Adam and Eves responsibility alone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by cavediver, posted 11-04-2009 7:03 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 5:30 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 156 of 179 (534122)
11-05-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by hooah212002
11-05-2009 1:08 AM


Re: Response to both Peg and iano
iano writes:
Your will was compromised back at the Fall by way of having a desire to sin injected into it. In other words, your will, if left to it's own devices, would plump for sin as surely as a junkie injects heroin.
hooah writes:
So basically, we were screwed from the get-go anyways. That tells me that it's gods fault. Gog gave us that free will, and you say our free will is faulty.
Adam and Eve were the last one's with a free will. In their case, God positioned them on a see-saw of choice and placed his prohibition on one end and Satans temptation on the other, balanced things up and left them at it.
Our case is slightly different. Our will is as I say (and as you object to) born addicted to sin. It injects at the very first opportunity: you don't have to teach kids to be selfish or to lie, do you?
To counter this skewing of things, God ensured the drug we ingested would contain an ingredient aimed at restoring effective balance to the situation. It was as the very point of ingesting his first piece of evil (by way of disobedience) that Adam ingested it's potential antidote: a knowledge of good and evil. Or a conscience if you prefer. The two were ingested in the one act.
So, whilst we now have a nature which is addicted to evil, and an enemy who knows how to stimulate that addiction, we also have a conscience which reveals the beauty of truth and love and kindness and goodness to us. And so the scales of our choice are rebalanced.
Our will: different than Adam and Eve in letter, identical in effect. We effectively have a free will in other words. It's a will crippled by addiction to a deadly drug, but it's a will held up on crutches by the effort of God. Held up so that it can decide what it would have: it's own way or God's way.
Not all that different to the choice faced by Adam and Eve in fact.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 1:08 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 5:45 AM iano has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 157 of 179 (534123)
11-05-2009 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by iano
11-05-2009 5:12 AM


Re: Balancing the see-saw of choice.
A&E understood English
elaborate. Do you mean to say that English is the original language? Would you also say that A&E were caucasion?
And so the consequences earned are Adam and Eves responsibility alone.
As i have said before, I find it atrocious that you can accept the repurcussions of the very first people ever created, and base your whole belief system on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by iano, posted 11-05-2009 5:12 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 11-05-2009 5:36 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 158 of 179 (534124)
11-05-2009 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by hooah212002
11-05-2009 5:30 AM


Re: Balancing the see-saw of choice.
There's a smilie behind the comment that A&E understood English. It doesn't really matter what the language was.
As i have said before, I find it atrocious that you can accept the repurcussions of the very first people ever created, and base your whole belief system on that.
The repercussions of their choice don't affect my choice. Everyone gets to choose where they'll spend eternity.
And whilst certain negatives attach to the world their choice resulted in, certain positives attach to it too - I have a knowledge of what's good as well as whats evil. A knowledge of what's good is a nice thing to have.
Besides, this life is but 4 score years and 10. Keep an eye on the eternal perspective

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 5:30 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 5:47 AM iano has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 159 of 179 (534125)
11-05-2009 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by iano
11-05-2009 5:27 AM


Re: Response to both Peg and iano
Adam and Eve were the last one's with a free will.
They were the first damn people ever. It seems as though god never intended on eternal bliss, free from sin even being an option, just a pipe dream.
Or a conscience if you prefer.
So our sentience is a sin?
.......random drug references.....
What? I really didn't follow much of that.
Let me ask you: should Hitlers descendants be chastized for what Adolf did? Should they have to ask for forgiveness for Adolf's mistakes?

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 Message 156 by iano, posted 11-05-2009 5:27 AM iano has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 160 of 179 (534126)
11-05-2009 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by iano
11-05-2009 5:36 AM


Re: Balancing the see-saw of choice.
I don't think you are following what i am saying. Every human being that has ever lived, according to you, is born a sinner because of what the VERY FIRST PERSON EVER CREATED did. gods first creation fucked up, and we pay. Sickening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by iano, posted 11-05-2009 5:36 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 11-05-2009 6:05 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 161 of 179 (534127)
11-05-2009 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by hooah212002
11-05-2009 2:13 AM


Re: double post
hooah212002 writes:
The fact that you are OK with everyone in the entire human race that ever existed suffering for what gods very first creation did, baffles me.
im most certainly not OK with it
the reason why I became a christian was because I wasnt happy with it. You may not realise it, but Gods Kingdom is a real government that will rule mankind. It will take action against all the bad things that go on and solve mankinds woes including war, sickness and death.
Daniel 2:44 "the God of heaven will set up a Kingdom...it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite"
hooah212003 writes:
Why not start over? why make all of humanity inevitably suffer because his FIRST creation screwed up? Seems a bit, i don't know, pedantic?
starting over is exactly what God intends to do....however he wont do it by wiping everybody out and creating a new couple to repopulate the earth. That would not be true justice. Instead he is doing it by gathering people from all the nations who want to be members of a world ruled by him.
If we were under his dominion, we would not have the terrible conditions we have today.
Edited by Peg, : changed the word 'the' to 'that'...for wotaks sake

This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 162 of 179 (534128)
11-05-2009 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by hooah212002
11-05-2009 2:21 AM


Re: look at it through parent/child eyes
hooah212002 writes:
I just really can't understand the rationale behind everyone suffering/being born into sin....because of ONE person.
yes i used to wonder why God did not simply created a new perfect couple. Adam and Eve were out of the garden, he could have put them to death...
but then you or I would not have been born
fortunately he did allow them to live and have children, but the consequence of that is that we were born with their genetic defect. Im sure you know that defects are passed along genetically from parents to children...mental defects are passed along just as personality traits are passed along and just as physical conditions are passed along.
have you ever noticed how young children want to do the things they are told not to do? Its gets worse as they get older.
Adam and Eve have passed that trait onto us. This is why we have a tendency to do what we are not allowed to do or what we are told we cannot do. This tendency is 'sin'. Its been passed onto us and God could not prevent that unless he got rid of Adam and Eve and created a new perfect couple
But God will remove sin from mankind. It wont happen until his kingdom is ruling, but then mankind will return to the perfect state. This is what I am looking forward to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 2:21 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 163 of 179 (534129)
11-05-2009 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by hooah212002
11-05-2009 5:47 AM


Re: Balancing the see-saw of choice.
I don't think you are following what i am saying. Every human being that has ever lived, according to you, is born a sinner because of what the VERY FIRST PERSON EVER CREATED did. gods first creation fucked up, and we pay. Sickening.
I'm not so sure. The choice that they made was made from the position of a kind of proto-person. I mean, they had no knowledge of good and evil - only of consequences. So they weren't human in the sense that we are human. At least not before the fall. After it they were like us and had as much need of salvation from their sin as we do.
We can't blame God for the decision of a free will. Nor can we really blame those proto-humans - they didn't know right from wrong at the time of their choosing.
So who is your complaint issued against, precisely?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 5:47 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by hooah212002, posted 11-05-2009 6:25 PM iano has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 164 of 179 (534131)
11-05-2009 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by DevilsAdvocate
11-05-2009 4:15 AM


DevilsAdvocate writes:
Where in the Bible does it say Adam was over 100 years old when he was expelled? Are you sure you are not making this up?
Genesis 5:3And Adam lived on for a hundred and thirty years. Then he became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and called his name Seth
Seth was not the firstborn but he is the 3rd son mentioned of the children of Adam and Eve. Cain and Able were born previously, and daughters were also born before Seth came along (from one of these daughters, Cain took as a wife) But if you think about it, If the 3rd son was born when Adam was 130yrs of age, and he didnt have any children until he left the garden of Eden, so he must have been at least 100 when he left the garden.
If he had a child every 5 years (i'm being very conservative here) That would mean at age 100 he had Cain, at 105 he had Able, at 110 he had daughter 1, at 115 Daughter 2, at 120 Daughter 3, at 125 Daughter 4 and finally at 130 Seth.
this is pure speculation, the bible doesnt say how old he was when he left Eden, but it does say how old he was when he fathered his 3rd Son. Mathematical probablility tells us that if you have 10 kids, you'll likely get a fairly even mix of both sexes and in 30 years a couple can have quite a few children.
Edited by Peg, : and in 30 years a couple can have quite a few children. added

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-05-2009 4:15 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 11-05-2009 7:28 AM Peg has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 165 of 179 (534136)
11-05-2009 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Peg
11-05-2009 6:28 AM


Peg writes:
But if you think about it, If the 3rd son was born when Adam was 130yrs of age, and he didnt have any children until he left the garden of Eden, so he must have been at least 100 when he left the garden
That is an baseless assumption. The Bible does not say how old Adam and Even where when they had Cain and Able or hold they where when they were supposedly expelled from Eden.
How do you know Adam and Even were not 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, etc years old when they had children. You have no way of proving this.
This is typical groundless speculation on the same lines of Ussher's widly speculative fabrication that God created the universe nightfall preceding Sunday October 23, 4004 BC and Dr. John Lightfoot estimation that Creation began at 9am October 23, 4004 B.C.
this is pure speculation
This is the only part I agree with you on.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Peg, posted 11-05-2009 6:28 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Peg, posted 11-05-2009 11:47 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
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