Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,779 Year: 4,036/9,624 Month: 907/974 Week: 234/286 Day: 41/109 Hour: 3/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2157 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 303 of 352 (535678)
11-17-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by ochaye
11-16-2009 12:05 PM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
quote:
What's the difference between a Mormon, a Calvinist and a Catholic? I can't think of one.
I thought this was a discussion of Mormonism vs the Bible? Calvinism and Catholicism aren't very relevant to this discussion.
(But you should know that Lutheranism, Calvinism and early Catholicism all claim agreement with Augustine, that salvation is not due to works, while Mormonism denies this.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 12:05 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by ochaye, posted 11-17-2009 1:52 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2157 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 322 of 352 (536037)
11-19-2009 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Blue Jay
11-13-2009 10:17 PM


Re: Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
Sorry; it's taken me some time to get back to this.
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyednot only in my presence, but now much more in my absencecontinue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Philippians 2:12-13(NIV)
quote:
So, there isn't a "work out" vs "work in" dichotomy in these verses. Based on the English grammar, it is completely invalid to treat these as grammatically synergistic. So, verse 13 provides no context for interpreting the language used in verse 12.
You can't split the context of v. 12 and 13--the two verses are part of the same sentence! Verse 13 begins with the coordinating conjunction "for"; it gives the foundation for v. 12.
Expositors Bible Commentary writes:
Paul describes the enablement to carry out the exhortation as being furnished by God himself, who produces in believers both the desire to live righteously and the effective energy to do so.
Word Biblical Commentary writes:
In fact, the conjunction makes it clear that God does not work and has not worked . . . because man has worked.. . . The contrary is true: because God works and has worked, therefore man must and can work"
I wouldn't call it a "dichotomy", but Paul specifically repeats the word "work" with various prepositions. In v. 12 the preposition kata is included with ergon (work) as part of a compound verb. Kata literally means "down";
Thayer writes:
a preposition denoting motion or diffusion or direction from the higher to the lower
In v. 13 Paul the prepositions are separate from the verbs and participles. Paul uses both "work in" and "work for." Paul seems to be intentionally re-using the word "work" in this passage to make a point.
quote:
Granted, Iano's belief that our good works are only the result of God working in us* is fully supported by this scripture.
Exactly.
quote:
However, I reject this one simply because it makes no intuitive sense to say, "Do X," when what you mean is, "Let God do X through you." What good could possibly be done by saying that?
Good observation and question. This sort of contrast is not unusual in the Bible. We could find many other passages that say similar things. But exploring this here would take us off-topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Blue Jay, posted 11-13-2009 10:17 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Blue Jay, posted 11-19-2009 8:34 PM kbertsche has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2157 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 335 of 352 (536189)
11-20-2009 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Blue Jay
11-19-2009 8:34 PM


Re: Contradiction 5: Means of Salvation
quote:
Just because you see "work out" and "work in" in juxtaposition or in the same sentence, doesn't mean that they are meant to be synergistic.
My comment was directed specifically at your suggestion that "work out" and "work in" were meant to be juxtaposed for the purpose of imagery.
But the author DID use the same word (work) with two different prepositions in the same sentence. It is unlikely that this was accidental. It is more likely that this was intentional on Paul's part, especially when he ties their clauses together with "for."
The gist of the sentence seems pretty straightforward; We are to be working out our salvation because God is working in us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Blue Jay, posted 11-19-2009 8:34 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2157 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 343 of 352 (536289)
11-21-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by ICANT
11-21-2009 11:33 AM


Re: Does the Book of Mormon contradict bits of the Bible?
quote:
Who is doing the talking? A specific person. Not a group or mankind.
What is he talking about? Specifically what he has to do to have eternal life. What good thing shall I do?
What was the answer he got to his question? He really did not get one to that question.
Jesus told him what he had to do to enter into life. He did not tell him what he had to do to receive eternal life.
Jesus did tell him what he had to do to have treasures in heaven.
But treasures are not eternal life.
Conclusion Matthew 19:17 is not talking about eternal life therefore it can not be associating eternal life with works.
This is indeed one possible way of interpreting the passage in the context of the rest of Scripture. But I think it divorces verse 17 a bit too much from verse 16.
I read the passage somewhat differently. The man is asking for what he can do to attain eternal life. Jesus reminds him of the OT Law, and helps him to see that this standard is too high for man to attain to. Jesus helps the man to see that he is not blameless, and has no hope of attaining eternal life through his own deeds.
In other words, Jesus is presenting a hypothetical case (If you can obey the OT Law perfectly, then you will have demonstrated that you are perfectly good and deserving of eternal life.) The purpose of this is to let the man see his own sin and to see that he cannot earn eternal life through works.
Bible Knowledge Commentary writes:
This ruler was not asking how he could earn salvation. Instead, he wondered how he could be assured of entering Messiah’s kingdom. He wanted to know what good thing (work) would demonstrate that he was righteous and therefore qualified for the kingdom. ... Jesus indicated that life (i.e., life in God’s kingdom) can be entered only if one gives evidence that he is righteous. Since the official standard of righteousness was the Law of Moses, Jesus told the man to obey the commandments. ...
Jesus put His finger on his problem when He told him to go, sell all his possessions and give to the poor, and he would then have treasure in heaven. Such mercy toward the poor would demonstrate inner righteousness. If he were righteous (based on faith in Jesus as God), he should have given his wealth to the poor and followed Jesus. But instead, the man ... went away sad (lupou/meno, grieved or sad to the point of distress; cf. 14:9; 18:31) for he had great wealth. His unwillingness to relinquish his wealth showed he did not love his neighbor as himself. Thus he had not kept all the commandments, and he lacked salvation. Nothing more was written about this young man; probably he never left all and followed Jesus. He loved his money more than God, and thus he violated even the first commandment (Ex. 20:3).
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by ICANT, posted 11-21-2009 11:33 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024