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Author Topic:   What would change your belief?
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 2 of 35 (534667)
11-10-2009 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-10-2009 5:28 AM


JUC writes:
I’m very curious about religious people who dismiss stories such as Adam and Eve, Noah’s Ark, etc on the basis of scientific evidence, yet still believe in their God. They seem to be able to twist their religious story: Oh, those bits were only ever meant to be allegories.
Yeahright!
Three problems strike me straight away.
1) "Yeah.. right!" is a way of 'arguing from incredulity'. That you can't believe it, somehow lends your argument more weight.
Yeah right!
2) There is no problem with someone now considering something allegorical that they previously thought literal. So long as the overarching theology holds together then there is nothing to worry about. Scientific theory works that way all the time: modify your hypothesis according to new observations or scrap the hypothesis.
3) You seem to be suggesting that wasn't until Science that people wondered whether a talking snake could be allegorical or not.
-
I don't dismiss stories of Adam and Eve based on scientific evidence so I really can't comment from the position you target. Just pointing out a couple of problematic areas in the setup of the dilemma.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-10-2009 5:28 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-10-2009 7:37 AM iano has replied
 Message 8 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-10-2009 10:10 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 15 of 35 (534889)
11-11-2009 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-10-2009 7:37 AM


Chimp writes:
I was expressing my extreme incredulity. Nothing more, nothing less.
No worries. Incredulity is a natural thing to do. But in the rigorous sense of debate, nothing can be taken for granted unless your 'opponant' grants you it. Incredulity is just one of those things you can only introduce when you've reached understanding with those in the opposing camp.
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You are right in that there's nothing wrong with someone changing their mind. But, just to take the example of Adam and Eve, I disagree that everything still holds together. The theology of Christians is still that God created mankind. But if you discard the only explanation you have for that creation, how can your theology still "hold together"? Get rid of the Adam and Eve story, and where do you have any explanation for how God created Mankind.
Look at it this way. I believe Adam and Eve were real people. There are other Christians (ie: people who satisfy the same criterion for God saving them as I satisfied in order that he saved me) who don't believe Adam and Eve were walking talking people. Our two theologies differ yet we are both Christian.
Now if I was to change my view from the current position to their position I would change theology but not my being a Christian. My being a Christian doesn't depend on my view on Adam and Eve, it depends on whether God saved me or not.
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I don't know what your definition of "Science" is, or when you though Science started. But I would say that some people would certainly always have wondered whether a talking snake could be real or allegorical based on their observation that no snakes or indeed any other animals apart from humans had ever been observed to talk. I would make that a scientific analysis.
Fair enough. In which case we concur: folk 2000 years ago could be expected to have as much trouble with the notion of talking snakes as we could be expected to have now (if we aren't believers in God).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-10-2009 7:37 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 27 of 35 (537921)
12-01-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jaywill
12-01-2009 3:11 PM


jaywill writes:
Now that would be devastating to the Christian Gospel I think. That would falsify the resurrection, don't you think ?
Then we would all have to give up the New Testament. I can hear em salivating !
I can hear 'em excavating all over the Holy Land! Dig bubba! Dig!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jaywill, posted 12-01-2009 3:11 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jaywill, posted 12-01-2009 6:46 PM iano has not replied
 Message 29 by jaywill, posted 12-01-2009 7:01 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 31 of 35 (537960)
12-02-2009 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by jaywill
12-01-2009 7:01 PM


jaywill writes:
I would not be surprised if someone is working on a good forgery.
Sheesh, that never occurred to me - but of course! If the significance of finding water on Mars can be parlayed into meaning "We are not alone! (perhaps)" can you imagine what a skeleton with traces of Romanesque iron oxide found in holes in the wrist could be capable of.
I'm thinking of the behaviour of Christians visiting Israel who flock to sites purporting to be authentically biblical. Folk know in their hearts these places are really just an ordinary upper room (in the sense it's on the second floor of a house) and just one of many tombs (which just happens to have a 'garden tomb' industry built up around it). But the lure is irresistable for those who believe.
Ditto for those who don't want to believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jaywill, posted 12-01-2009 7:01 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jaywill, posted 12-02-2009 7:55 AM iano has not replied

  
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