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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002

Message 1 of 2 (539887)
12-20-2009 12:08 PM

I’ll make this fairly brief and list just a few reasons and examples of why I believe that Jesus was a failure. I dare say that a few more reasons will be added as the thread develops.

Anyway, the first issue is in relation to the aspirations of Jesus as the promised Messiah of the Tanakh. I have been constantly reminded by Christians that Jesus was the Messiah, but have they really examined the evidence or are they so blinded by faith that they cannot see the obvious?

What is the evidence then? Well the ONLY record of the life of Jesus is the text of the New Testament and of other biblical texts (such as The Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Barnabas) that did not make the cut when the editing committees constructed the NT. Since these texts are not normally referred to when making a case for Jesus’ Messianic claims we just need to look at the current NT texts.

We also have to look at another collection of texts, The Tanakh, since that is where the origins of messianic ideology begin. We need to look there to discover what the Messiah actually is then apply the verses to the life of Jesus we have in the NT.

Thirdly, we need to look at the historical evidence. The events that the Old and the New Testaments relate did not take place in a vacuum. Many of these events would have had a huge impact of the face of history so it is an important resource. Also, many of these events need to be examined for historical plausibility we cannot just accept something because it appears in writing.

Remember that these are some of my reasons for concluding that Jesus was not the Messiah, and I don’t expect any of the believers to be convinced by any of these conclusions. I was asked why I conclude that Jesus was a failure, and the following is just a brief outline.

Firstly, it is a basic understanding that the Messiah will be a descendant of King David, and in particular a descendant of David’s son Solomon (the so-called ‘Nathan prophecy’)
2 Samuel 7:8-13

"Now then, tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD Almighty says: I took you from the pasture and from following the flock to be ruler over my people Israel. I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have cut off all your enemies from before you. Now I will make your name great, like the names of the greatest men of the earth. And I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore, as they did at the beginning and have done ever since the time I appointed leaders over my people Israel. I will also give you rest from all your enemies.

'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

So this is very straightforward, to be the Messiah you have to be a descendant of David through his son Solomon, does Jesus fulfil this criteria?

I’m not going to go into every detail here as this is just the opening post, but we should all be aware that there are a great many issues surrounding the two conflicting genealogies given in Matthew and Luke for Jesus’ father Joseph.

The first issue with these genealogies is that they are both artificial. Matthew arranges his in 3 groups of 14, if we include Jesus. Matthew quite clearly omits many of Jesus’ ‘ancestors’ to achieve this order, for example Matthew gives only a few names to cover centuries of time, Boaz, Obed and Jesses covers a period of over 350 years, so we know that names must be missing. Luke also arranges his genealogies in sets of 7, but does have a more realistic number of ancestors, although there are difficulties such as three generations covering a period of 430 years (Aminadab, Aram, Esron).
It is universally accepted, probably because it is so obvious, that the two genealogies of Jospeh are artificial. For me this sets off alarm bells. Why are these genealogies so different, and since they are artificial then they are artificial for a reason. This brings into question the reliability of the testimony of the authors of these Gospels, if they are tampering already with the evidence then we know that they are not completely reliable.

It has been suggested that the genealogy of Luke is that of Jesus’ mother Mary, but this causes more difficulties that it solves. If this is Mary’s genealogy it only goes back to David through his son Nathan, and as we know the Messiah is to come from the line of David but through Solomon, so this idea is useless. What I find very interesting regarding Luke’s genealogy being Mary’s is the fact that both genealogies were accepted as being Jesus’ for nearly 1500 years. The apologetic suggesting that this was Mary’s genealogy was only presented in the 15th century by Annius of Viterbo. Most damning of this proposal is the fact that Mary is NOT mentioned in Luke’s genealogy. So, if these are the genealogies of two different people then why did it take nearly 1500 to suggest this, surely it would have been accepted from the very start?

Then we have the oft discussed topic that if Jesus was born of a virgin then he is not Joseph’s son, and therefore not a descendant of David, so no Messiah. There are other issues with genealogies, I’m sure we will get to them, but these two superficial glances at His genealogies already bring into doubt the reliability of the written record of Jesus’ life.

The Nathan Prophecy is also one source that informs us that the Messiah would also sit on the throne of Israel. Jesus claimed to be a king:

Young’s Literal Translation John 18:37
Pilate, therefore, said to him, `Art thou then a king?' Jesus answered, `Thou dost say ; because a king I am , I for this have been born, and for this I have come to the world, that I may testify to the truth; every one who is of the truth, doth hear my voice.'


You are a king, then! said Pilate. Jesus answered, You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.

There is no mention of Jesus’ coronation in the NT or in secular sources, so Jesus lied, or the poor guy was so deluded that He actually believed that He had been crowned king of Israel.

There is no record of Jesus ever being crowned king of Israel, you think that the NT, and secular sources, would have mentioned His coronation, but Jesus was never crowned king of Israel, thus He was not the Messiah.

The Messiah would also set Israel free from her oppressors, and gather the Jewish nation back to Israel.

Isaiah 11:12

He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

Does this sound remotely like anything that Jesus achieved? Jesus failed here too because Israel was even more oppressed after Jesus’ birth arrival and death.

Next up, the Messianic age would witness the rebuilding the Temple on Temple Mount.

Isaiah 2:2

In the last days
the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

Jesus did not build any Temple, in fact the Temple He knew was still standing during His lifetime so this makes it even more obvious that Jesus was no Messiah.

The Messiah will also bring to an end all war and establish peace on Earth.

Micah 4:3

He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

Where’s this peace that Jesus should have brought? Since His death we have developed weapons that can destroy the entire Earth! Once again Jesus has failed.

The long and the short of it is that Jesus failed to fulfil a single messianic prophecy, and is therefore a failed preacher. Feel free to call Jesus The Messiah if you want to, but He certainly was not The Messiah promised by Yahweh in the Tanakh, to think so is simply perverse.

Bible study please.

Edited by Brian, : spelin

Inactive Administrator

Message 2 of 2 (539897)
12-20-2009 1:10 PM

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