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Author Topic:   Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others)
greyseal
Member (Idle past 139 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 241 of 425 (541173)
01-01-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Peg
01-01-2010 6:54 AM


Re: Huh?
peg writes:

Coyote writes:

Why should there be ring species among humans?

why would there not be?

Why would other animals experience the phenomenon of 'ring species' but not humans?

Do we not breed as much as any other creatures on the planet? (apart from insects of course)

Do we not have groups of people who breed in insolation from outsiders?

You have heard about all the other sub-species in the genus homo? the ones that went extinct a mere few tens of thousands of years ago?

yeah, that's the human ring-species you're talking about.

Fact is, ring species doesn't have to occur, but when and where it does you'll see the proof. Whining that it doesn't happen if it hasn't happened to humans (when there is no driving NEED for it to happen to humans to prove it does or does not exist) is pointless, futile and pathetic. sorry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Peg, posted 01-01-2010 6:54 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 139 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 242 of 425 (541175)
01-01-2010 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by ICANT
12-31-2009 10:42 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
ICANT writes:

greyseal writes:

are you telling me that man can create a dog from a wolf?

I did not say that.

I did say mankind had interfered with the two kinds of animals. They have taken and produced a hybrid animal from the two.

I suppose the insemination was/is by artificial means as on a natural basis it would be difficult.

But if you leave them alone in the wild insemination will never happen as wolves have lifetime mates. The males will protect their lady to the point of killing an intruder. No one in the pack will bother another's lady.

Without mankind's intervention there would be no wolf dog.

so...let me get this straight.

donkeys and horses can hybridize (rarely naturally, more often with human intervention, with infertile offspring) - and so they're the same kind

horses and zebras can hybridize (rarely naturally, more often with human intervention, with infertile offspring) - and so they're the same kind

so horses, donkeys and zebras (at least) are all the same kind because they CAN interbreed (admittedly humans generally have to interfere, else it's really rare)

but dogs and wolves, quite capable of interbreeding in the wild (although it's probably rare - although the famous story of balto would tell me that's a lie if you say it never happens) and definitely capable of interbreeding with FERTILE offspring are somehow NOT the same kind because, apparently, it's rare or doesn't happen in the wild and takes human intervention (allegedly) to happen.

I'm sorry, ICANT, but I can't see the difference.

is it that because dogs and wolves have fertile offspring that makes them different kinds? I mean...that doesn't really make sense.

Please, shove that foot further in your mouth, it's getting entertaining again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by ICANT, posted 12-31-2009 10:42 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 12:53 PM greyseal has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 243 of 425 (541196)
01-01-2010 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by greyseal
01-01-2010 11:09 AM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi greyseal,

greyseal writes:

so horses, donkeys and zebras (at least) are all the same kind because they CAN interbreed

I have never said they are the same kind.

In fact up thread I said there was an ass kind, a horse kind, and a zebra kind.

greyseal writes:

but dogs and wolves, quite capable of interbreeding in the wild (although it's probably rare - although the famous story of balto would tell me that's a lie if you say it never happens)

What does a Siberian husky work dog named baito have to do with wolves and dogs breeding in the wild? He himself was neutered. The Siberian husky breed was created by the Chukchi people of Russia.

I did not say it was impossible for them to breed in the wild.

But if you know anything about wild wolves you will know that it is very unlikely.

Wolves run in packs. They select a mate for life. The young females are not allowed to mate with any of the mated males. This is controled by the females. The males will kill any that try to mate with their lady. No one from another pack is allowed to infiltrate the pack. Must less mate with their females. The dominate male enforces all rules., if necessary.

A dog would stand little chance against a wild wolf, and would not be accepted into a pack.

Now animals that are in the wild that have been altered by humans would be different.

Would you agree that the 2 horses in my avatar are the same kind?

The mare is 17 1/2" tall and weighs 57 pounds.

Would it be possible for them to breed and produce offspring?

They are both full grown horses of the same kind.

God Bess,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by greyseal, posted 01-01-2010 11:09 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by lyx2no, posted 01-01-2010 1:11 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 248 by greyseal, posted 01-01-2010 2:20 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 244 of 425 (541199)
01-01-2010 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Vacate
12-31-2009 10:54 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi vacate,

vacate writes:

By these standards didn't you just make the ark explode with all kinds of kinds?

I did not make anything explode.

God had the animals He wanted on the ark arrive at the ark when it came time to board the ark. From those animals we have all animals that are on earth today and those who have gone extinct in the last 6k+ years.

Any animal that was extinct prior to 6k+ years ago was not on the ark.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Vacate, posted 12-31-2009 10:54 PM Vacate has not yet responded

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 994 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 245 of 425 (541200)
01-01-2010 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ICANT
01-01-2010 12:53 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
But if you know anything about wild wolves you will know that it is very unlikely.

Wolves run in packs. They select a mate for life. The young females are not allowed to mate with any of the mated males. This is controled by the females. The males will kill any that try to mate with their lady. No one from another pack is allowed to infiltrate the pack. Must less mate with their females. The dominate male enforces all rules., if necessary.

Since male wolves leave the pack after about two years to start their own packs and the females tend to remain far longer any girl husky has her pick of wolf mates. Do you think a randy male wolf would reject a cute, little husky?


You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 12:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 246 of 425 (541205)
01-01-2010 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Asgara
12-31-2009 11:39 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi Asgara,

From your article Wolf Dog Hybrids in the Wild

quote:
Hybridization in the wild usually occurs near human habitations where wolf density is low and dogs are common.

You don't call that human intrvention?

This link does not work. Rare but it does happen

Since I have never said that kinds could not cross breed and produce a new kind what does dingos and coyote's producing offspring have to do wth anything?

If you breed dogs you get dogs.

If you breed wolves you get wolves.

If you breed wolves and dogs you get half wolf and half dog. Then you can call it whatever you want. But it is not a dog and neither is it a wolf.

Some animals produce offspring that are sterile. Humans do the same. So what? Are they not human?

God Bles,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Asgara, posted 12-31-2009 11:39 PM Asgara has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Asgara, posted 01-01-2010 2:06 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 249 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-01-2010 2:41 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 251 by Iblis, posted 01-01-2010 2:54 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 270 by jasonlang, posted 01-01-2010 5:02 PM ICANT has responded

    
Asgara
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 1679
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 247 of 425 (541207)
01-01-2010 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ICANT
01-01-2010 1:40 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
you stated that it will never happen in the wild:


...But if you leave them alone in the wild insemination will never happen ...

Without mankind's intervention there would be no wolf dog....

Just showing that yes it does occur in the wild, and not just wolves and dogs.

You don't call that human intrvention?

By necessity, it would have to happen where there is a population of dogs, and populations of dogs generally happen near human habitation. No I do NOT call this human "intervention".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 1:40 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 139 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 248 of 425 (541208)
01-01-2010 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ICANT
01-01-2010 12:53 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
so wolves and dogs are different kinds. horses, zebras, donkeys are different kinds...you do know that there are plenty of creo's that think all "horsey" breeds are the same "kind" because they can, however forced, interbreed?

and that dogs and wolves are the same "kind" for the same reason?

so where do you set the line in the sand? I thought the definition of "kinds" was easy, straightforward and simple?

so far, the secular scientific method holds all the points and your "kind" methodology has fallen before the first hurdle.

it fell over before it got out the gate...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 12:53 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 3:28 PM greyseal has responded

    
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 249 of 425 (541211)
01-01-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ICANT
01-01-2010 1:40 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
I'm sorry, my head is spinning.

ICANT writes:

Since I have never said that kinds could not cross breed and produce a new kind what does dingos and coyote's producing offspring have to do wth anything?

If you breed dogs you get dogs.

If you breed wolves you get wolves.

If you breed wolves and dogs you get half wolf and half dog. Then you can call it whatever you want. But it is not a dog and neither is it a wolf.

I'm trying to make sense of this. So:

All kinds that exist today were on the ark. There are no such things as new kinds.

A dog is a dog kind and a wolf is a wolf kind.

Dogs and wolves are not of the same kind.

Dogs and wolves can interbreed. Their offspring are not wolf kind nor are they dog kind.

But in Message 62 you said:

ICANT writes:

All I have ever said is a kind is a kind and can never become another kind as they produce after their kind.

So of what kind are these wolf-dogs? Did you just create a new kind or didn't you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 1:40 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by greyseal, posted 01-01-2010 2:47 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded
 Message 253 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 3:13 PM ZenMonkey has responded

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 139 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 250 of 425 (541213)
01-01-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ZenMonkey
01-01-2010 2:41 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
ZenMonkey writes:

I'm sorry, my head is spinning.

ICANT writes:

Since I have never said that kinds could not cross breed and produce a new kind what does dingos and coyote's producing offspring have to do wth anything?

If you breed dogs you get dogs.

If you breed wolves you get wolves.

If you breed wolves and dogs you get half wolf and half dog. Then you can call it whatever you want. But it is not a dog and neither is it a wolf.

I'm trying to make sense of this. So:

All kinds that exist today were on the ark. There are no such things as new kinds.

A dog is a dog kind and a wolf is a wolf kind.

Dogs and wolves are not of the same kind.

Dogs and wolves can interbreed. Their offspring are not wolf kind nor are they dog kind.

But in Message 62 you said:

ICANT writes:

All I have ever said is a kind is a kind and can never become another kind as they produce after their kind.

So of what kind are these wolf-dogs? Did you just create a new kind or didn't you?

THIS.

wait, wait, I've got it, it's simple!

some of the offspring are wolf-dogs (ergo are DOG kind) and some of them are dog-wolves (ergo are WOLF kind).

they can interbreed quite happily but they're entirely different, separate kinds that are real easy to tell apart. honestly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-01-2010 2:41 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

    
Iblis
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 251 of 425 (541214)
01-01-2010 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ICANT
01-01-2010 1:40 PM


hybridization
Hi ICANT!

The point people are trying to draw to your attention is that wolves and dogs, cattle and bison, and most especially sheep and goats, appear to be different creatures due to general reproductive isolation but interbreed regularly and successfully wherever their populations overlap. This is exactly the same kind of behavior and relationship seen among the variety of human races.

Some animals produce offspring that are sterile. Humans do the same. So what? Are they not human?

This brings us on down to horses and donkeys. Because their populations were isolated for a very long time, they still interbreed (very willingly) but the offspring they produce are generally sterile. Does this make them not equine?

If housecats and bobcats are different "kinds", then so are Negroes and Caucasians.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 1:40 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
jasonlang
Member
Posts: 47
From: Australia
Joined: 07-14-2005


Message 252 of 425 (541215)
01-01-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by ICANT
12-31-2009 6:44 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
Do we really need to spell everything out like talking to a young child ?

now, tell me which thing i have wrong here ??

I've numbered the points for simplicity

1. god created distinct kinds.

2. These kinds can never cross with other kinds

3. you listed dog kind and wolf kind as seperate kinds

4. point 3 contradicts point 2 and point 1, given that dogs and wolves can be crossed.

5. Conclusion : dogs and wolves must be the same kind (canine kind).

I also provided the wiki diagram on canine hybrids. All these must be a single kind (maybe not foxes though).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ICANT, posted 12-31-2009 6:44 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 4:15 PM jasonlang has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5182
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 253 of 425 (541216)
01-01-2010 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ZenMonkey
01-01-2010 2:41 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi ZenMonkey,

ZenMonkey writes:

So of what kind are these wolf-dogs? Did you just create a new kind or didn't you?

Why did you call this half breed a wolf dog?

Instead of a wolf or dog?

But if you breed two dogs you get dog pups after their kind.

If you breed two wolves you get wolf pups after their kind.

They never produce anything other than pups after their kind.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-01-2010 2:41 PM ZenMonkey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Blue Jay, posted 01-01-2010 3:18 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 255 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-01-2010 3:20 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 258 by greyseal, posted 01-01-2010 3:33 PM ICANT has responded

    
Blue Jay
Member
Posts: 2612
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 254 of 425 (541217)
01-01-2010 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ICANT
01-01-2010 3:13 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
Answer the question, ICANT.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 3:13 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 255 of 425 (541218)
01-01-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ICANT
01-01-2010 3:13 PM


Re: Kind (Wolves)
ICANT writes:

Why did you call this half breed a wolf dog?

Instead of a wolf or dog?

It doesn't matter what I call it. I'm asking what YOU call it.

You're not denying that wolves and dogs can interbreed. They can. But whatever this offspring of a dog and a wolf is, according to you, it's not a wolf kind and it's not a dog kind and it's not some new kind, so I ask again:

What kind of animal is the offspring of a dog and a wolf?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 3:13 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2010 4:44 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

  
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