The Flood = many coincidences

"Can you document it? I don't know where to begin. Virtually everything you are saying is wrong."Wrong you say? Which claim is wrong?? Let’s unpack, this is a science forum for goodness sake:1. Magma chambers below AZ; This is known to be true as geophysical evidence has shown the existence of a massive chamber(s). Thick Layer of Magma Found Under American Southwest | Live ScienceThis truly is no surprise as by carefully studying the geomorphology of AZ (and the SW in general), massive volcanism is obvious. There are massive edifices (San Francisco Peaks, Mt. Baldy, Mt. Taylor and Valles Calderas NM) among numerous lava flows, dikes, necks, etc. There is also a massive lava field on the northern edge of the Grand Canyon. Also known to be true in this region are the existence of massive aquifers. Aquifers+magma chambers is the perfect combo for destructive phreato-magmatic eruptions. Plate tectonics has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of magma chambers.2. Ancient Native American ruins in the SW; This again is true. Many of the known sites are just a few hundred years old (pueblos, cliff dwellings, etc.). However, a much larger civilization did exist in the SW as was observed and recorded by surveyors in the late 1800’s. Their descriptions include large cities, and massive architectural piles remaining of the civilization that mysteriously disappeared, and yes, I do have copies of these documents. In the Phoenix basin there are/were massive canals, drainage channels, mounds, orchards, etc. Many of the modern canals follow the ancient paths. Rapid growth and poor archeology/preservation has erased much of this evidence, yet much of it still remains sprinkled throughout the SW off the beaten paths. The sheer size of this civilization was much larger than we have been taught, or perhaps this fact is just now coming to light.3. Dino prints and remains; Also known and true. There are a plethora of prints throughout the SW especially within the reservations. Of course, they are on the top strata and the Natives will also tell you they are on mesas, in valleys, etc. Therefore Dinos were running around everywhere, and probably running from a pyroclastic flow and/or massive ash fallout.Given these facts, we can conclude that there is strong evidence that Dino AND this ancient civilization were buried by a massive eruption(s). Keep in mind, the Spanish did not arrive until the 1500’s and the tribes they met were most likely remnant and scattered tribes from a ‘extinction’ that could have taken place only a few thousand years earlier. In addition, there is also compounding evidence in other parts of the world that Dino and man lived at the same time showing up in ancient architectural artifacts. You can do the research this subject on your own. Of course, this massive evidence obliterates the 65 million year old Dino demise. The Jurassic world is nothing but a science fiction scenario that has rooted itself as fact. Just like the plate tectonic sea floor spreading and subduction diagrams, scientists are truly duped by their own cartoon drawings of the Jurassic world.Duped by the diagrams; this scientific affliction continues.A good read; Red Earth, White Lies: Native Americans and the Myth of Scientific Fact by Native American Vine Deloria. He is not a Creationist nor an Evolutionists, yet he challenges the entire scientific community regarding many aspects of geology and archeology. He also scoffs at plate tectonics and orthodox geology and rightfully so as they are truly obsolete. In light of my own research into the ancient Native American architectural artifacts, I will say that they are grossly misunderstood, and their achievements in what I will call sustainable development, is impressive to say the least.

Good question. I believe they were pulverized via volcanism (pyroclasic clouds). "Bones" that are found are all mineralized correct?

"Care to make any meaningful comments?"I’m beating a plate tectonic dead horse here but will continue to do so because the plate tectonic theory truly needs to be discarded forever into the halls of junk sciencePlate Tectonics = sea floors spreads, sea floor subducts. This is the essence of plate tectonics.Fact; ocean crust is only ~200 million years 'old', while continents are over 3 billion years 'old', all due to sea floor spreading and sea floor subducting.Therefore, if the sea floor is not spreading, then the sea floor is not subducting, and therefore plate tectonics is false and does not exist.Case in point: Indian Ocean 2554'0.42"S 6930'35.28"EThis is a plate tectonic cluster duck. The ‘intersection’ of 3 MOM’s (remember, I have officially renamed the Mid Ocean Ridges, or MOR’s to MOM’s, because they give birth to twins according to plate tectonics). So these three MOM’s got together and are having 3 sets of ocean crust twins who are mysteriously trying to spread away from their Mommies, all of which are vying for ocean bottom real estate. Therefore, their alleged spreading per the plate tectonic theory (rooted as fact), is emphatically impossible as this spreading concept only works in a bi-lateral scenario (according to the cartoon diagrams that is). However in this radial scenario, spreading is beyond ridiculous and is physically impossible as the system is LOCKED. Furthermore, there are no subduction zones in this region that would be needed to balance the alleged spreading. The closest one is the arc of Indonesia, but again, close observation reveals a massive disturbance in this region near the arc.It is apparent, by carefully studying the bathymetry of the surrounding sea floor, there was a massive collapse and/or disturbance on a large scale of surrounding landmass. The result of this collapse, perhaps caused by continental over-loading with water along with massive quakes, resulted in massive compressional forces along with sheer in the OPPOSITE direction of the alleged plate tectonic sea floor spreading scenario. The geomorphology, or architecture as I would say, supports this compression scenario in the obvious deformation of the lithosphere as a result of a massive event that we currently do not observe. Tests will support this as well.Therefore, this blows an irreparable hole in the plate tectonic theory. As a result, evolutionary science is left with a mega age discrepancy on their hands to deal with.Again, scientists (as well as the general masses) are simply duped by sea floor spreading and sea floor subducting diagrams, and are not critically analyzing the formations of the ocean floor due to the plate tectonic addiction.I recommend reading articles against plate tectonics by your own peers, especially those of D.R. Choi, editor of New Concepts for Global Tectonics. ForbiddenThese guys are thinking outside of the plate tectonic box at least. Furthermore, Choi points out that seismic waves produced at the MOR's are compressional, which is diametrically opposite of the plate tectonics sea floor "spreading" assumption.Plate tectonics is bunk. Vertical tectonics is much more plausible as a world model.Edited by ARCHITECT-426, : sic

"Sounds irrelevant, but I'd love to hear about it. "Not irrelevant, but perhaps a huge geological epiphany!The concept is simple and observed with volcanic activity. Material is blasted from a vent, and ballistically deposited elsewhere. Since there are massive piles of mountains that are sedimentary, then perhaps they were deposited via massive ballistic sedimentation process from a massive volcanic event. The Bible says the Great Flood was going to be complete and utter destruction "with the Earth" and every living land creature was going to perish (Genesis Ch. 6).So in essence, the Earth blew up and we have ballistic sedimentation everywhere. After this process, geological formations are carved by massive runoff and that's why we have a plethora of marine fossils strewn high and low.Edited by ARCHITECT-426, : clarity

No, not correct. I don't know that any of your statements concerning bones are correct.Human bones are generally found intact, rather than pulverized, as part of a burial, and are most often in a demineralized condition.I was just out with a local coroner looking at some bones and the ones we saw were 1) associated with one another in anatomical position, 2) in a normal burial posture for this area, and 3) demineralized, as will be the case with most soils.And we didn't see any dinosaur bones on this find or any of the others I have been associated with in forty years of archaeological and osteological research.Give it up. Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. They were not cavorting about with humans in the western US in recent times.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This is one of the more poorly written articles I've ever read. Besides it says there is a molten layer around the whole world... Just because there are volcanic rocks does not mean that the magma chamber is still there...Do you understand what happens to magma chambers? Most of the ocean floor is lava. Do you also suppose that there is a large magma chamber everywhere beneath the ocean? Maybe you could point one out to us? Possibly. But that would also be that case with normal aquifers. Sure it does. Why do you think that the Arizona geography is so broken up? Nonsense. The are on the 'top strata' because that is what is exposed by erosion. They occur in several layers and some of those are stratigraphically deep. This is plain silly. Footprints in the Dakota Formation would be on the ridges and mesa tops because it is a resistant sandstone, and those in the Morrison Formation would be in more of the valleys because of the presence of less resistant shales. In both cases, they are quite old, just exposed by erosion. Nonsense. The dinosaur footprints are often buried by other sediments of the same formation and the Anasazi civilization is not buried by anything. If they ran away from a volcanic eruption, they were wasting their time. And that research shows that the artwork is a hoax or else has nothing to do with dinosaurs. Except that you have provided no evidence. Except that is is documented, whereas your fantastic world is not shown anywhere in the geologic record. Except that we can actually see it happening. Kinda blows away your theory, doesn't it? Yep, them scientists is pretty stoopid, ain't they? Hey, there are all kinds of crackpots in the world. Do you ever read any mainstream articles or texts? Hey, if whatshisname say it, I'm convinced! Umm, the only problem is that we can see PT actually happening. How do you handle that? Evidently, it didn't sustain them very well...I agree that they are misunderstood by some people.Now, am I supposed to take your post seriously?Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix some quote boxes.

Well, there are thousands of scientists who would like to know that they are wasting there time. I'm sure that you could direct them to more productive pursuits. I mean just tell them your qualifications and it should be a cinch. All you need is evidence. If you have a better explanation of the evidence this would be a fabulous time to make it public. I'm glad you have a definition that you can understand. Let me guess - you didn't major in logic in college.How does all this refute plate tectonics, and why do you think that scientist haven't thought about all this before? Ah, I see you have never taken a course in plate tectonics. I'm shocked.You do realize that plate movements are strictly relative. The motion between plates A and B has nothing to do with plates C and B.Yeah, it's confusing. Kinda like QM, but it works. I really don't expect you to understand, considering that you really don't want to understand. Want some dressing with that salad? This has so many contradictions, I don't know where to start. I guess first of all, if you have a 'room problem' the solution is not to collapse a land mass. It just doesn't work. Second, there was no landmass. Maybe if you made your statement more coherrent, we coudl go further with this but basically it's a bunch of gibberish. Not really, because what you are saying makes no sense. Yep, right. 'Em scientists er stoopid. Well, then. They MUST be right! Thinking outside the box is always the best thing. I suggest that Choi either does not understand divergent boundary tectonics or he does not understand seismic information. Plate tectonics is actually observed. Vertical tectonics is only a subset of plate tectonics.Where do you see the best example of vertical tectonics? To a fringe, parochial school of thought, yes.

Ah, wonderful. I always love to hear about geological epiphanies from non-geologists! Oh, I've seen those. In fact I mapped one of them. But they don't look the way you think.

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So in essence, the Earth blew up and we have ballistic sedimentation everywhere.

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Then you should be able to show us the evidence supporting a 'ballistic deposit'. You should also probably calculate the energy involved in depositing the entire geologic record this way. I mean, it MIGHT have implications... Are you serious? Fossils are being deposited in an erosional envrionment? Not counting the fact that you just obliterated all life in a monumental explosion ...Arch, there are a lot of weird ideas out there that appeal to the untrained and naive. I strongly suggest that you do a reality check on your sources and see them for what they are: charlatans. I hope you are not sending them money. Edited by edge, : No reason given.

Hi edge, amusing yourself? Strewn by the magical mystery explosion/s, uncovered by the erosional environment.Unfortunately, for ARCHITECT-426, this does not explain fossil sorting in the slightest, as seen in foraminifera sorted in layers by species groupings:http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/whatsnew/papers/biochart.pdfNor does it explain the smooth transitions from one level to the next and the overall hierarchy of descent:article 8

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The record reveals a robust, highly branched evolutionary tree, complete with Darwin's predicted "dead ends"--varieties that lead nowhere--and a profusion of variability in sizes and body shapes. Transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendents. In short, the finding upholds Darwin's lifelong conviction that "nature does not proceed in leaps," but rather is a system prepetually unfolding in extreme slow motion.

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There is no reason - or mechanism- for such structure to be preserved in the fossil record under the grande exploding world scenario.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : splingEdited by RAZD, : spling

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Heh! RAZD, don't you know that if you can tell bullets apart by ballistics, you can sort forams with ballistics, too?

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

More like abusing myself, I'm afraid. These YEC posts recently have been so nonsensical that I find it completely disorienting. I have no idea what to make of them.Take this one by Arch. He has no provenance for the sediments other than some kind of explosion and no provenance for the fossils except that they somehow survived the explosion. It's all very fantastic, which, I suppose makes it all the more believable for a devout YEC. But to say that this explains the fossil record is beyond ludicrous. It ignores virtually every piece of evidence in the geologic record. So, the fossils were involved in the explosion. Okay, that helps.Or does it???

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Unfortunately, for ARCHITECT-426, this does not explain fossil sorting in the slightest, as seen in foraminifera sorted in layers by species groupings:

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http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/whatsnew/papers/biochart.pdf

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The biological implications make it more complicated. But for me, it's just plain crazy to think that the deposits could all originate from an explosion. These things are common in volcanic rocks, but not anything like the scale that Arch seems to think. However, they would tell us what to expect from such a cataclysmic explosion. And it ain't there.

Hi again edge, Curiously, I don't think that's fair to other YEC's or creationists in general, as Achitect-426 is pretty much on his own here - I know of no other creationists that has taken this ... approach. I don't think you are alone here, I pretty much wrote him off when he told me that shells could survive being submersed in magma. I've also figured that this would take the effect of Krakatoa and place a similar event every 10 sq miles over the surface of the entire earth, at a minimum - and krakatoa did not throw any sediment or fossils, just ash and cinder blocks.Krakatoa is the largest volcanic explosion known in history, and the largest ones known from geological evidence are still too small and still only show ash covering existing turf - no sediment or fossils mixed in.Nor do we see sediment or fossils mixed with ash in any known volcanic deposits, rather what is embedded in the ash is what was already on the ground (Pompeii for example).I consider this grande exploding world scenario a falsified hypothesis.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : clrty

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Okay, well, I should say 'some of the YEC posts...' On another board, I had someone tell me that since there was some kind of "state change" in the past, we cannot say what happened before. In fact, mercury might have turned into gold because they are so close on the periodic chart. Then, of course, we had our own 'galloping continents' proponent and gold deposit expert from Scandinavia here earlier. Some of these things are just plain weird. Well, actually, Tambora was probably bigger, but there were no direct witnesses (at least none left alive). I'll check to see what the highest inferred volcanic explosivity index is for some historic volcanos.

Here, try the list on Wiki. Krakatau in 1883 had a VEI of 6 and Tambora in 1815 was a 7.Volcanic explosivity index - Wikipedia

Hi edge, And I see Mt St Helens was a 5 - the shock of that exposion was felt in Victoria BC by some friends of mine (it happened before we lived there, so I missed it). I also see that the "supervolcano" Yellowstone Caldera is listed twice as an 8. I remember reading about ash deposits in the midwest that are attributed to this source being several meters deep.I also see Toba was an 8:

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In addition, it is the site of a supervolcanic eruption that occurred about 74,000 years ago,[2] a massive climate-changing event. The eruption is believed to have had a VEI intensity of 8. This eruption is believed to have been the largest anywhere on Earth in the last 25 million years. According to the Toba catastrophe theory to which some anthropologists and archeologists subscribe, it had global consequences, killing most humans then alive and creating a population bottleneck in Central Eastern Africa and India that affected the genetic inheritance of all humans today.[3]

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Still no evidence of sediment or fossil throwing, nor is this a global explosion.Enjoy.

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