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Author | Topic: Detecting Design | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Coyote,
I was going to mention glacial erratics as well. They can be quite large and far from their original source/s.
Google "Devil's postpile" for some good images. Basalt commonly forms hexagonal patterns as it cools, and you can see evidence of this type of formation in many canyon walls and remnant cone cores, like Devil's Monument. One thing to be wary of is attributing glacier scouring marks to be marks of the stones being intentionally cut. I'd say no one characteristic from such a list as given above is sufficient, and even two is dubious. There are also a lot of stone monoliths distributed around norther europe, some that show evidence of being worked and erected, others not so clear. Is a "possible design" inference more or less likely if there is just one example or if there are numerous examples? Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Tanndarr,
There's a similar problem going on about how to tell the difference between hyena bone-chewing patterns and evidence of modification by hominids. ... I read the first page on JSTOR but didn't want to pay for the entire article since it sounded like another argument among archaeologists. The article seems to be about how to tell them apart if you have sufficient information\evidence. One of the criteria was how the bones were treated by the collectors:
quote: Seems fairly straightforward. Of course it is more difficult when you don't have known examples of an unspecified designers preferences compared to a natural process that produces similar artifacts. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks Coyote.
But in the absence of any other information, larger numbers of similar specimens do at least point toward a regularity of some kind, and tend to eliminate the accidental. Whether that regularity was due to deliberate manufacture or some natural process would still be a problem. One problem I have is that design may be only a singular event. Things I have designed over 10 years ago are still being made, and I've seen some recent examples even though I've moved hundreds of miles from the point of original design, and the manufacturing has since moved as well. This makes tying the objects to the design difficult, and all you have then is the artifact.
Whereas a nice projectile point is clearly "designed" even if you find only one, and it is away from any cultural deposit. But do you really have evidence of design, or of manufacture that copies a design?
The Devil's postpile has a lot of examples of rectangular stones, ...
Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : pic Edited by RAZD, : last
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Tanndarr,
I was struck by the apparent in-fighting that goes on between scientists as they seek to establish the relative importance of their finds. Yes, ego, and to some extent confirmation bias, plays a role (see Bluejay's thread One's Own Theory). Gould and Dawkins is another example
Did you see that on the preview page or did I just miss it? It's in the abstract (see bottom of webpage for copyable text).
I know my dogs go for the ends of the bones first. Humans would be primarily interested in extracting marrow. Yep, and they have the jaws to chew the ends, humans don't. There are several other differences noted. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Coyote, some additional thoughts.
Whereas a nice projectile point is clearly "designed" even if you find only one, and it is away from any cultural deposit. Would that include points like the following:
If they are completely out of context? Enjoy we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Coyote,
The "points" you illustrated are far from what I would classify from human-made. The first thing I would look for would be bifacial flaking, that is, flaking on both sides of the object. That is rare in nature, and organized bifacial flaking is just not found on rocks in streams or other contexts where rocks bang together naturally. That is a sign of human activity. Your "points" lack this bifacial flaking--in fact, they lack flaking of any kind! And yet we see designed artifacts that have used points like this:
The wood and fiber structure could have decayed away and you would be left with a set of sorted points. enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Perhaps now is a good time to recap where at we are at, if I can paraphrase statements:
Feel free to add more examples\methods. There's also some duplication or overlap, so if anyone wants to make a condensed list, go for it. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : condense we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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