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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 427 (542806)
01-12-2010 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Briterican
01-12-2010 2:19 PM


Re: Quote mining?
Briterican writes:
Given what we know about Brian, and what we've seen of his understanding through his posts, this is an incredibly baseless accusation.
Hi Briterican. I've been debating Brian a number of years more than you and likely been into the Bible long before either of you were born. If you think Brian's understanding of the Bible relative to this debate (abe: makes sense,) perhaps you could do a better job of supporting his position than he has done. You could begin with explaining how a forever throne could be limited to a contemporary era.
Tell me of a nation on Earth today that hasn't experienced a degree of global dispersion... We are all everywhere now.
LOL, Briterican. Tell me of any other ethnic nation who has been scattered globally for scores of centuries and return to their own land under extreme odds and being surrounded by enemy nations armed by Russia for their destruction, all of which was prophesied centuries before they were even dispersed.
Do you honestly believe in "prophecy", and if so, how do you sleep at night knowing that "the end is nigh?" If your answer is "because I know I will be raptured" - don't you feel any remorse or sympathy for all of us poor misinformed non-believers (or perhaps believers in another faith) who will burn in eternal hellfire?
I thank God for every day I have to enlighten as many others as possible in order that they too may have eternal life in Heaven. I go further than that. I send all of the hard earned $$ I can to advance Christianity, to support the persecuted and feed/clothe the poor in third world nations. I pray for the day some EvC member will publically profess conversion to Jesus Christ as lord and saviour on this board or that some EvC Christian apostate will return to the fold. Perhaps you will be the first.
Briterican writes:
Buzsaw writes:
...at a time when the new nation would be surrounded by hostile nations
You could pick virtually any country in Africa, and this statement would be true. Like all prophecy, it is vague enough that any number of scenarios could be described as fulfilling it.
This is a strawman, in that it doesn't fit the point. Again, no enthnic (religion/race nationality) nation of people from Africa has been scattered globally to have their nation restored to a hostile region after having been prophesied to do so.
As a matter of fact, the only ethinc African group to which this would apply was in 1991 thousands of Ethiopian Jews were airlifed to Israel, again,. as per the Biblical prophets.
and the nations of the world would be gathered into the region for war.
Gold and silver was replaced by "marks and numbers" a long time ago mate. Are the end times running a little late? Is Yahweh busy rewriting the script?
LOL. Not on a global scale and not at a time when significant other corroborating events support the prophecy.
Hmmm... that describes virtually any point in time in the last several hundred years. Vague and ambiguous.
Your usage of the word last here is significant in that for the last few centuries since the Reformation, knowledge has gradually escalated to the degree we are experiencing.
Buzsaw writes:
at a time when a one world government would come into focus for consumation.
Sigh. What about the Ottoman Empire, or Rome? Don't these fit the bill?
They do not fit in that the prophecy (see Revelation 13, for one example) emphatically emphasize that every nation, tribe and tongue of the planet would be obliged by this power to buy and sell with marks and numbers and to worship a speaking image (i.e. TV type technology and i.e. Islamic Shariah type law).
Buzsaw writes:
If one rationally (I say rationally)corroborates all of this factual data
You write as though you are an educated individual. How then can you be so drawn into superstition and mysticism? Wouldn't your intelligence be more wisely used by dispensing with these fantastic notions of messianic prophecies and instead indulging in a hefty dose of reality?
I have a high school diploma, 3 semesters at Bob Jones University and some USAF jet mechanic training. The rest comes from reading, googling, listening, researching, observing and above all, praying for wisdom, insite, knowledge and understanding of all things important. That's it. You might say I'm a 74 year old home schooler working to achieve the ultimate degree.
Edited by Buzsaw, : add short phrase

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Briterican, posted 01-12-2010 2:19 PM Briterican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Iblis, posted 01-12-2010 11:37 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 186 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-13-2010 6:08 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 202 by Briterican, posted 01-14-2010 3:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 182 of 427 (542814)
01-12-2010 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Buzsaw
01-12-2010 7:35 PM


forever is a long time
You could begin with explaining how a forever throne could be limited to a contemporary era.
This has already been covered by purpledawn pretty thoroughly in Message 173, but I thought I would just go ahead and drag out my elephant-gun and see if I can clear it up even more for your audience.
The word translated "ever" in Second Samuel 7:13 is 'owlam in Hebrew. Let's look at some verses.
Genesis 6:4 writes:
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
Did these giants or mighty men reign forever, or were they in due time drowned? Did they live an infinitely long time ago, or only a few thousand years back?
Proverbs 23:10 writes:
Remove not the old landmark; and enter not into the fields of the fatherless:
Do these landmarks last forever? Or is there a danger of someone removing them? Are they all still standing, or are most of them long gone?
Ecclesiastes 3:11 writes:
He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Is the world in men's hearts an eternity, or is it just something that doesn't go away very easily?
Isaiah 58:12 writes:
And [they that shall be] of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Do these places remain wasted forever, or are they in fact being built up again?
Jeremiah 5:15 writes:
Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it [is] a mighty nation, it [is] an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.
Did Nabopolasser's Neo-Babylonian empire last forever? Or did they get totally trounced by Cyrus and Astyages in 540 BC?
In each of these cases, the wording in bold represents 'owlam. And not a tense or variation of it either, ayin vau lamed mem with the same vowel markings.
Once you actually search the scriptures and rightly divide them, in other words, it's pretty clear the word means "long-time".
Edited by Iblis, : when the stars were right again

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2010 7:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Buzsaw, posted 01-14-2010 12:51 AM Iblis has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 183 of 427 (542825)
01-13-2010 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Buzsaw
01-12-2010 1:58 PM


Re: Quote mining?
No credible Bible scholar would accept your POV on the Davidic Covenant here.
Just so I can get things straight here Buz.
Are you saying that no credible Bible scholar would say that the Nathan prophecy states that God promised David that his house (dynasty) would last forever even though the prophecy clearly states this?
" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you 2 Sam 7:11
The 'house' in this quote refers to a Davidic dynasty, are you sure that no credible Bible scholar would agree with me here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2010 1:58 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Buzsaw, posted 01-13-2010 11:26 PM Brian has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 184 of 427 (542912)
01-13-2010 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by PaulK
01-12-2010 5:42 PM


Re: Earthly Throne
EMA correctly observes
Belief in the God the text cries out for Paul is not prejudice and dogma. in fact it makes little or no sense without it"
paulK mistakenly replies
That may be your opinion, but even on the evidence of this thread it does not appear to be true.
Then what is the point of your part here anyway then?
Happily this is not my opinion, its in the text you are quoting. I can reproduce them if you want me to
Also, how in the world would you know if any conclusion you are basing your point on has any validity itself. Are you beginning to see the futility of tryng to argue from a 'portion' of the text and bury you head in the sand regarding the other.
Oh dear, it seems that you are still making the same mistake. This is a point I have already addressed. The tests I am using are the messianic prophecies and the alleged messianic prophecies (which are typically nothing of the sort). For the messianic prophecies we can look at them and see whether Jesus fulfilled them For the alleged Messianic prophecies we can read them in context, see what they really say - and if they are framed as predictions at all. The actual history behind the writing (aside from the dating, and whether the originator is Jewish or Christian) is of relatively little importance to this analysis.
Oh dear,it seems that you have not been a critical thinker for very long. Since you have already admitted that neither the Old testament or New testament documents can be trusted in almost any regard, it would follow that you can only guess at what some guy that thought he was a prophet of God, might have been speaking about.
It is for sure that you have no way of proceeding to conclude that:
Quote "For the messianic prophecies we can look at them and see whether Jesus fulfilled them For the alleged Messianic prophecies we can read them in context, see what they really say - and if they are framed as predictions at all. " PaulK
For what they "really say" would DEPEND on the ENTIRE context which CLEARLY includes God as its AUTHOR, God as its SUSTAINER and God as its DEFINITION or INTERPRETATION. You get a 'C-' at an attempt at a rational thought process in this connection PaulK
Secondly, the ENTIRE CONTEXT would determine whether we are discussing a spiritual matter or a stricly physical one.
Since Nathan said, that the Lord himself said, he would establish the house of David, I dont see anyway you can keep this on some kind of physical or temporal level, do you?
do you still want to talk about context?
The actual history behind the writing (aside from the dating, and whether the originator is Jewish or Christian) is of relatively little importance to this analysis.
I bet your buddy Brian would not agree witht his statement and I bet in another thread you would argue just the opposite of what you are implying here
If the entire context is not actual history, ie, the miracluous and God who cares anyway, correct. I told you it was avicious circle
This is the first time you have said that. However, since this thread is about BRIAN'S reasons for considering Jesus a failure then the common frame of reference has to be one that makes sense to Brian.
This is an odd statement, considering the fact that the only way brian would know whether jesus was a failure would to be examine the text of Old and New
besides this Brians reasons were set out in the form of the messianic prohecies. what gives him the right to exclude Gods involvement in a context that says he was there all along.
Our purpose here is not to PROVE, in the classical sense of the word, to him or you that jesus was ABSOLUTLEY this or that, he will have to decide that for himself. Ignoring very real possibities and realites, not to mention the ENTIRE context, will and can shed a different light on the question as to Jesus' success
therefore his and your dogmatic exclamations that Jesus was a failure quickly become less than absolute. As a matter of fact the reality of the fulfillments become even more obvious when the ENTIRE context is taken into consideration
you called this earlier, me bullying you out of the discussion when in fact it is the only logical way to proceed, atleast when discussing any document that in every other verse, it claims God did this or that, God is behind all of this or that
The tests I am using are the messianic prophecies and the alleged messianic prophecies (which are typically nothing of the sort). For the messianic prophecies we can look at them and see whether Jesus fulfilled them For the alleged Messianic prophecies we can read them in context, see what they really say
its a funny thing, one moment you seem to argue for the CONTEXT aproach, then when it doesnt suit your purpose, you disavow it as irrelevant.
curious way to proceed
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2010 5:42 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by PaulK, posted 01-13-2010 6:07 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 187 by purpledawn, posted 01-13-2010 6:16 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 185 of 427 (542916)
01-13-2010 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Dawn Bertot
01-13-2010 5:20 PM


Re: Earthly Throne
Well, I am afraid that your post contains a lot of arrogant nonsense, and little in the way of rational argument. It's simply not worth responding to most of it.
quote:
For what they "really say" would DEPEND on the ENTIRE context which CLEARLY includes God as its AUTHOR, God as its SUSTAINER and God as its DEFINITION or INTERPRETATION. You get a 'C-' at an attempt at a rational thought process in this connection PaulK
The "ENTIRE context" certainly does not include God as the "AUTHOR" of any of the Biblical books. In fact it excludes it. At most you will find sections which claim to relay messages from God - but authored by humans.
Let me remind you. You claimed that discussion required common ground. In that case if you wish to discuss this topic - which is about Brian's assessment of the evidence - it's up to you to stick to the common ground. You don't get to demand that everyone else adopts your assumptions. No, not even if you are abusive and insulting about it.
quote:
Since Nathan said, that the Lord himself said, he would establish the house of David, I dont see anyway you can keep this on some kind of physical or temporal level, do you?
I think that we can. According to the Bible, God's promise to Abraham involved giving him and his descendants actual physical land. That's physical and temporal. Solomon's Temple was physical and temporal - and destroyed by the Babylonians.
quote:
I bet your buddy Brian would not agree witht his statement and I bet in another thread you would argue just the opposite of what you are implying here
If the entire context is not actual history, ie, the miracluous and God who cares anyway, correct. I told you it was avicious circle
Of course if I were discussing a different subject, different facts might be relevant. I think that in this case Brian would largely agree with me. If we have a clear prediction of what the Messiah should do, written before Jesus' career then clearly it is relevant. If, on the other hand, the "prediction" is an egregious quote-mine, concoted long after the alleged fulfilment which itself is almost certainly a legendary accretion then clearly it has little evidential value for the purposes of this discussion.
quote:
This is an odd statement, considering the fact that the only way brian would know whether jesus was a failure would to be examine the text of Old and New
Of course Brian needs to consult the OT for the messianic prophecies and the NT for he story of Jesus. Since the NT authors are strongly biased in favour of the idea that Jesus was the Messiah this is hardly being unfair to Jesus.
quote:
Our purpose here is not to PROVE, in the classical sense of the word, to him or you that jesus was ABSOLUTLEY this or that, he will have to decide that for himself. Ignoring very real possibities and realites, not to mention the ENTIRE context, will and can shed a different light on the question as to Jesus' success
therefore his and your dogmatic exclamations that Jesus was a failure quickly become less than absolute
Since our conclusions are neither dogmatic nor absolute - simply well-supported by the evidence - you are arguing against a strawman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-13-2010 5:20 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-13-2010 6:18 PM PaulK has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 186 of 427 (542917)
01-13-2010 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Buzsaw
01-12-2010 7:35 PM


Re: Quote mining?
I have a high school diploma, 3 semesters at Bob Jones University and some USAF jet mechanic training. The rest comes from reading, googling, listening, researching, observing and above all, praying for wisdom, insite, knowledge and understanding of all things important. That's it. You might say I'm a 74 year old home schooler working to achieve the ultimate degree.
thats pretty neat. i think the 74 and the years of experience speak louder than anything. Im sure there is alot of digging and studying behind those years
Always interesting to read your posts
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2010 7:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 187 of 427 (542918)
01-13-2010 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Dawn Bertot
01-13-2010 5:20 PM


Re: Earthly Throne
quote:
Since Nathan said, that the Lord himself said, he would establish the house of David, I dont see anyway you can keep this on some kind of physical or temporal level, do you?
do you still want to talk about context?
YES!!!!!! You keep avoiding it. Stop the commentary and actually debate.
The book of Samuel was written after the fact. It wasn't being written in the moment. The author was writing about David and his actual lineage and their position as leaders of Israel. It all took place on planet earth in normal time and space. David was appointed king and his descendants would continue to reign over the people of Israel on earth as long as they behaved. This has all happened in the past. It is done.
There is nothing in the Bible that supports your contention that God was establishing something ethereal. The idea that it is ethereal because God is ethereal is (as you like to say) nonsense. In that case the whole planet is ethereal since God laid the foundation of the earth.
Isaiah 48:13
Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: [when] I call unto them, they stand up together.
Was God speaking of ethereal hornets when he said he would send them to drive out the Hivites?
Exodus 23:28
And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
No, that would be ridiculous. The authors were writing about what happened to physical Israel on physical planet Earth.
The opposition just changes the setting to ethereal because it messes up the dogma if the messiah was actually supposed to be a human leader.
Show us which words in 2 Samuel 7:13 or in the surrounding text that tells the reader that the throne is ethereal. It isn't there.
Remember, the context is the text in its time; not ours.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-13-2010 5:20 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-13-2010 6:48 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 188 of 427 (542919)
01-13-2010 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by PaulK
01-13-2010 6:07 PM


Re: Earthly Throne
The "ENTIRE context" certainly does not include God as the "AUTHOR" of any of the Biblical books. In fact it excludes it. At most you will find sections which claim to relay messages from God - but authored by humans.
Trust me PaulK I am not being anymore insulting than brian or yourself. however with the above statement, surely you can see that I see you in no wise objective. it would take days simply to reproduce all of the passages that say God said this or that, or those that demonstrate he is involved in the process
Just a different way of looking at things, I suppose. I think we have both made our points on this aspect. Please proceed
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by PaulK, posted 01-13-2010 6:07 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by PaulK, posted 01-13-2010 6:38 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 189 of 427 (542921)
01-13-2010 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Dawn Bertot
01-13-2010 6:18 PM


Re: Earthly Throne
quote:
Trust me PaulK I am not being anymore insulting than brian or yourself. however with the above statement, surely you can see that I see you in no wise objective. it would take days simply to reproduce all of the passages that say God said this or that, or those that demonstrate he is involved in the process
Passages that "say God said this or that" would BE passages "which claim to relay messages from God" - indeed the "God said this or that" itself would typically be the product of a human author, would it not ? "God being involved in the process" falls well short of the assertion that God is the "AUTHOR". And I am sure that you can find a number of passages which indicate that a human being was the actual author of the text.
In other words, you claim that my statement is "in no wise objective" because you could spend days writing out evidence that is entirely consistent with it. That is hardly a rational position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-13-2010 6:18 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 190 of 427 (542924)
01-13-2010 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by purpledawn
01-13-2010 6:16 PM


Re: Earthly Throne
There is nothing in the Bible that supports your contention that God was establishing something ethereal. The idea that it is ethereal because God is ethereal is (as you like to say) nonsense. In that case the whole planet is ethereal since God laid the foundation of the earth.
yes, how could it be anything otherwise. Also,
so indirectly you indicate that PaulK is wrong about God not being involved in the process and God not being the author of samuel and God not being the one that established Davids house, correct? We may be looking at some common ground. You agree that God is actually involved, correct?
Not stricly ethereal, but spiritual there is a wide difference. God as its author involves moral and ethical standards and principles, not always attributed to a physical kingdom, ie, the sacrificing of animals for the forgiveness of sins. God as its author may have expanded meanings and intentions past a single time in history correct. Consider the following passages
1. Jehovah will bring thee, and thy king whom thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation that thou hast not
known, thou nor thy fathers; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. And thou shalt become
an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all the peoples whither Jehovah shall lead thee
away (Deuteronomy 28:36-37).
2. And Jehovah will scatter thee among all peoples, from the one end of the earth even unto the other
end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers,
even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, and there shall be no rest for the
sole of thy foot: but Jehovah will give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and pining of soul;
and thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear night and day, and shalt have no assurance
of thy life (Deuteronomy 28:64-66).
3. And you will I scatter among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land shall
be desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor
them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am Jehovah their God (Leviticus
26:33,44).
4. For I am with thee, saith Jehovah, to save thee: for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I
have scattered thee, but I will not make a full end of thee; but I will correct thee in measure, and will in
no wise leave thee unpunished (Jeremiah 30:11).
5. If these ordinances depart from before me, saith Jehovah, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from
being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith Jehovah: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations
of the earth searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have
done, saith Jehovah (Jeremiah 31:36-37; see also Jeremiah 46:27-28).
6. Behold, the eyes of the Lord Jehovah are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the
face of the earth; save that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith Jehovah. For, lo, I will
command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as grain is sifted in a sieve, yet
shall not the least kernel fall upon the earth (Amos 9:8-9).
Gods intentions transcend a single place in time, or atleast they can and do appear as such in the scripture
Was God speaking of ethereal hornets when he said he would send them to drive out the Hivites?
Was there a moral therefore spiritual principle involved for the sending of the pests? Quit being simplistic
The opposition just changes the setting to ethereal because it messes up the dogma if the messiah was actually supposed to be a human leader.
God never intended it to be a human leader
God told Samuel to give them all they desired, because they had not rejected samuel but God that he should riegn over them
I believe kings reign, correct
Remember, the context is the text in its time; not ours.
There you go again with your blinders on, PurpleD. it not our time, its Gods time and purposes, in a pattern from the foundation of the world
Show us which words in 2 Samuel 7:13 or in the surrounding text that tells the reader that the throne is ethereal. It isn't there.
goodness man its not in one passage, its in its entirity. tell me what the verse i just quoted above says to you PurpleD? So because it was past the time of Samuel, God no longer desired to reign over them?
eventually he would in the nature of the messiah and king. there will be no end to his rule
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by purpledawn, posted 01-13-2010 6:16 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by purpledawn, posted 01-13-2010 8:37 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 191 of 427 (542930)
01-13-2010 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dawn Bertot
01-13-2010 6:48 PM


Re: Earthly Throne
quote:
so indirectly you indicate that PaulK is wrong about God not being involved in the process and God not being the author of samuel and God not being the one that established Davids house, correct? We may be looking at some common ground. You agree that God is actually involved, correct?
Nope, not directly or indirectly. The author of Samuel is unknown. According to the text God authorized David to be king and rule over the Israelites.
quote:
Not stricly ethereal, but spiritual there is a wide difference.
I've asked you several times to explain what you mean by spiritual. You have yet to explain.
quote:
God never intended it to be a human leader
It doesn't matter what God intended. He let the people have kings. We aren't talking about God's intentions, we are talking about what the text actually says.
Deuteronomy and Leviticus were written after the time of David and Solomon. The authors are talking about earthly kingdoms.
quote:
There you go again with your blinders on, PurpleD. it not our time, its Gods time and purposes, in a pattern from the foundation of the world
And yet you don't take the text at face value. You have to add a backstory so it will fit current dogma.
quote:
goodness man its not in one passage, its in its entirity. tell me what the verse i just quoted above says to you PurpleD? So because it was past the time of Samuel, God no longer desired to reign over them?
Then show us the where it clearly states that David's kingdom mentioned in 2 Samuel 7:13 is spiritual or ethereal. We keep asking and you keep not showing.
Since you listed 6 different verses, I have no idea which verse you're talking about; the verses you've shared don't make 2 Samuel 7:13 mean spiritual kingdom or that God speaks of anything but a physical nation or kingdom on the planet.
Ignoring complicated explanations that have nothing to do with the text being discussed is not simplistic. 2 Samuel 7:13 is very straight forward.
I'm not sure where you're going with this since Jesus isn't even in Solomon's bloodline.
Please explain what you mean by spiritual.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-13-2010 6:48 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-15-2010 3:43 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 206 by Iblis, posted 01-15-2010 5:16 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 427 (542937)
01-13-2010 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Brian
01-13-2010 2:57 AM


Re: Quote mining?
Brian, no astute Biblical scholar would agree that a forever throne, i.e. Davidic Covenant would apply to the throne contemporaneous to King Solomon, nor would they contend that the messianic implication of the Davidic Covenant had a contemporaneous fulfillment. Nor would they argue that the prophecy failed.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Brian, posted 01-13-2010 2:57 AM Brian has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 193 of 427 (542939)
01-13-2010 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by purpledawn
01-07-2010 9:41 AM


Re: Everlasting Heir Busted
Purpledawn writes:
Why would that be the question, when I clearly showed in Message 131 that the everlasting part is contingent upon behavior?
You really need to read things properly.
[qs]I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, ... and I shall certainly establish the THRONE of his kingdom firmly forever.[/b]
What was God going to 'establish forever'? The Throne.
I dont think a throne can behave or misbehave, can it?
The throne represents a position of authority given by God to rule. Solomon had that while he was faithful, but later lost it. So the prophecy here is not speaking about Solomon. The initial part about the builder of the temple is about Solomon, but the rest of the prophecy, the position of authority that was to be established forever, is not.
purpledawn writes:
I also showed in that message, through scripture, that Solomon was the one referred to
Not thru scripture...thru you're own interpretation which is not in harmony with scripture. You are talking about Solomon while the prophecy, as shown above, is clearly talking about the 'throne'....or the position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by purpledawn, posted 01-07-2010 9:41 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by purpledawn, posted 01-14-2010 8:45 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 194 of 427 (542941)
01-13-2010 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by PaulK
01-08-2010 3:26 AM


Re: Am I correct?
Brian writes:
Which Bible are you using and what does it say ?
2 Sam 7:13 NWT
"He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite"
What is being established here is not Solomon, but the 'thone' which represents the position of kingly authority.
This is why I keep saying that only the first part of the prophecy 'he will build a house for my name' refers to Solomon. The remainder about the 'throne' would have to be fulfilled by someone else for the reason that Solomon did not remain faithful, nor did he live forever. Only one who would live forever could rule on the throne forever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by PaulK, posted 01-08-2010 3:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 01-14-2010 2:44 AM Peg has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 427 (542944)
01-14-2010 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Iblis
01-12-2010 11:37 PM


Re: forever is a long time
Iblis writes:
This has already been covered by purpledawn pretty thoroughly in Message 173, but I thought I would just go ahead and drag out my elephant-gun and see if I can clear it up even more for your audience.
PD and Brian both err in stuffing for ever/forever into a contemporaneous time frame. Corroborating scriptures bear this out every time the name David is used with a messianic connotation.
LOL with the elephant pea shooter. Read carefully and thoughtfully these corroborating scriptures:
Ps. 89
(3) I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn to David my servant, (4) your seed will I establish for ever, and build up your throne to all generations. Selah.
Ps. 89
(35) Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie to David. (36) His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. (37) It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
Ps. 132
(11) The Lord has sworn in truth to David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne. (12) If your children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon your throne for evermore... (17) There will I make the horn of David to bud; I have ordained a lamp for my anointed.
Is. 9
(6) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Jer. 23
(5) Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. (6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [When?] (7) Therefore, behold, the days come, says the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord lives, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; (8) But, The Lord lives, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
Jer. 30
(3) For, lo, the days come, says the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, says the Lord; and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it...(9) But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up to them.
Jer. 33
(7) And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first...(15) In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up to David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. (16) In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness. (17) For thus says the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;... (20)
Ezek. 34
(23) And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. (24) And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. (25) And I will make with them a covenant of peace,...
Ezek.37
(24) And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (25) And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever; and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
(26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. (27) My tabernacle [mishkan, ,] also shall be with them; yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (28) And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Hos. 3
(4) For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim; (5) After-ward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.
Amos 9
(11) In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old; (12) That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, says the Lord that does this.
Zech. 12
(8) In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. (9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec. 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness...(6) And one shall say to him, What are these wounds in your hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. (7)
(Enter Jesus:
Matt. 12
(42) Saying, What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him, The Son of David. (43)
Luke. 1
(32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give to him the throne of his father David.
(Embolding mine.)

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Iblis, posted 01-12-2010 11:37 PM Iblis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by purpledawn, posted 01-14-2010 9:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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