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Author Topic:   Why creationist definitions of evolution are wrong, terribly wrong.
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 205 (545789)
02-05-2010 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-03-2010 10:23 PM


In debate: Accuracy: good. Pedantry: bad.
First let me sweep my hands and say "I agree.".
However - allow me Wittgenstein the thread a little and suggest the problem with language might be to do with a problem with language and that it all boils down to a language game.
A creationist objects to the notion that we (and let's face it - it's us humans they are most concerned about in this picture) descended from ooze and monkeys (hence, from goo-to-you via the zoo). If there were to ask a biologist 'what's that thing called which says we evolved from monkeys', after considering whether a pedantic correction was merited the biologist would likely answer, 'do you mean, evolution?'
And that's what they are trying to express a dislike for. And while precise terms are good - especially with the nature of the arguments creationists try to raise which often rely on woolly terms - we have to occasionally get over semantics and examine what the person intends to communicate in an attempt to progress.
And this is important because there is a rhetorically serious issue here. If everytime a creationist says 'Evolution didn't happen, cats aren't related to dogs' we get bogged down defining evolution in terms of allele frequency variations - it's going to look (quite justly) like we're avoiding the argument (for what it's worth).
And if a creationist tries to be more accurate and says, 'Macroevolution didn't happen, cats aren't related to dogs' it does no good to start harping on about how macroevolution is change beyond the species (speciation and upwards) so that technically even AiG now accepts macroevolution.
This kind of word game just makes it look like we're being elitist, snobbish pedants who avoid creationist's concerns as if we're frightened they've undone us...which is exactly what a lot of them are saying!
Of course - we should call bullshit if a creationist website, claiming authority on the subject at hand says
quote:
Evolution, as it is strictly intepreted in technical terms, deals with the suggested mechanisms for the progressive development of more complex lifeforms from simpler ones.
because it's plain false given it's claim for it being a strict interpretation in technical terms both of which are not true of what follows.
But let's be honest - a lot of people, and not just creationists have a brief bit information about evolution and we should certainly inform them of the technical terms. But I think we should be making an effort not to prove them wrong by showing how the technical definition of the words they are using undermine their argument, but by trying to convert their argument into technical terms explaining what you are doing, and then show how it is technically false even if it looks intuitively true in lay terms.
This is easy if the person is humble - and is very difficult if they are the kind to proclaim to have a killer argument that slays the beast of evolution once and for all.
Applying the same logic to your post - it isn't necessarily creationists per se that are your problem I presume but the ultimate source of their problems the -Authoritative Sounding Sources - That Aren't Really. So, given your problem is ultimately with ASSTAR allow me to address that briefly:
Many of these 'authorities' know they aren't defining things correctly or accurately. I know this because I know they've been told many times.
Whether those authorities are deliberately being loose with the language to allow coherent looking arguments to follow, or whether they genuinely think they are adequately translating from the technical to the layfolk is another issue. Given some of the definite acts of deliberate deception we've seen from ASSTAR, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the former.
I think the best way to rid creationist's minds of the stuff ASSTAR puts in, is as described at the start of this post. Patience and a genuine attempt to understand the meaning behind the words rather than pedantic derision at the particular words being used.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-03-2010 10:23 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 28 of 205 (545941)
02-06-2010 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by marc9000
02-06-2010 10:39 AM


vagueness from scientists?
Why is it okay for militant atheists like Dawkins and Stenger to use the words simple and complex in describing evolution, and it’s not okay for creationists to simply repeat it/agree with it?
Evolution can explain how complex things can form from simple things. Evolution does not suggest that complex things must form. That's the difference.
Creationists migh say, as an example 'evolution is when something simple becomes more complex'.
Evolutionists say 'if something simple has become more complex this can be explained by evolution by means of natural selection'.
If creationists said the latter - I'm sure there'd be no problems.
The definition of evolution is intentionally kept vague and confusing BY SCIENTISTS, so that it can be switched back and forth between being innocent empirical science to an aggressive weapon against religion.
Heh - I called it in message 5 of this thread:
quote:
This kind of word game just makes it look like we're being elitist, snobbish pedants who avoid creationist's concerns as if we're frightened they've undone us...which is exactly what a lot of them are saying!
Could you give me an example of this vagueness? The quotes you gave weren't really very vague.
That creationists are blamed for the vagueness should be an inspiration to any open-minded person to take a critical look at all the metaphysics that are going on in the publicly established scientific community today. Who is really more at fault concerning the "wrong" definitions of the word "evolution", creationists, or atheists in science?
The creationists, I think. The two examples of 'atheists in science' you brought up were not saying things that are untrue.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by marc9000, posted 02-06-2010 10:39 AM marc9000 has not replied

  
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