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Author Topic:   Eusebius the Liar? - Pious Fraud Endorsed to Advance Christianity
Peg
Member (Idle past 4952 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 7 of 49 (547404)
02-19-2010 12:25 AM


i would like to know what bearing any of this has on the bible
Lets say Eusebius deliberately lied in some of his own writings...how does that affect the writings of the Apostles?

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 10:15 AM Peg has replied
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-19-2010 10:55 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4952 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 19 of 49 (547492)
02-19-2010 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jazzns
02-19-2010 10:15 AM


Re: Eusebius' influence on the Bible
Jazzns writes:
Eusebius was highly influential regarding the formation of the canon and was chartered with the responsibility for creating authoritative copies of "sacred scripture" for the emperor.
You make it sound as if this discredits the cannon somehow.
Did any of his own writings make it into the cannon?
Jazzns writes:
In fact, Eusebius was quite disappointed that his own arianism was rejected as heretical at the Council of Nicea.
Just becasue Euseubius went against his own beliefs...such as the trinity which years earlier he wrote strongly against... doesnt mean that the history he wrote was deliberately false.
Jazzns writes:
But to say he wasn't influential regarding the early formation of the church, or how the church viewed itself for the coming centuries would be naieve.
well if you consider that he was opposed to the trinity doctrine, you would be naive to conclude that he held a strong influence over the church at all. The trinity doctrine went ahead even though he had stated that Jesus and God could not be the same. It would appear that Eusebius was more influenced by other leading bishops for he put his name to the Nicean creed even though he had previous written against such a notion.
btw, i dont support the early church fathers in the slightest, but i recognize that their writings are important to understanding how christianity went so wrong.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 10:15 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 02-21-2010 12:37 AM Peg has replied
 Message 26 by Jazzns, posted 02-22-2010 9:55 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4952 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 20 of 49 (547495)
02-19-2010 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
02-19-2010 10:55 AM


Dr Adequate writes:
the writing of Eusebius makes the Gospels more credible --- but only if Eusebius himself is credible.
I dont see it that way.
He had not hand in the actual writing of the NT, so credible or not, he was not involved in it. He did not write anything claiming inspiration, so his writings are much like any other historical writing...information presented from his own point of view.... not immune to errors, deliberate or otherwise.
Dr Adequate writes:
We must also ask whether he was any good as a critical historian, or whether he was taken in by stuff that other people had made up.
i think most historians fall into that category, dont they? Has there ever been a 100% accurate historian? Most historians get their information from existing souces, so if the existing source is slighly wrong, then so will be the historian relaying the information.
Its like the internet today. People (and i have fallen into this trap myself) search for information, they find it at one site and copy it over to another. The same errors get relayed over and over again.
Dr Adequate writes:
My own opinion is that he was honest, but that he too easily allowed himself to be bamboozled by the inventions of others.
i agree on that point. He went against his own writings...obviously he was influenced by those in authority and he probably didnt want to loose his position as bishop.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-19-2010 10:55 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-19-2010 8:34 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4952 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 25 of 49 (547650)
02-21-2010 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Theodoric
02-21-2010 12:37 AM


Re: Eusebius' influence on the Bible
i believe you've gone off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 02-21-2010 12:37 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4952 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 28 of 49 (547778)
02-22-2010 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jazzns
02-22-2010 9:55 AM


Re: Eusebius' influence on the Bible
Jazzns writes:
Considering that he is one of the primary voices used to establish the canon in the first place, yea I would say that a liar and story teller picking which books are holy could matter.
well it doesnt really work like that. Evidence of canonicity was not dependent upon men who lived 300 years after the fact.
The RCC may claim responsibility for the canon but the opposite is true, because the canon, including the list of books making up the NT was settled long before they made their official list.
The testimony of later noninspired catalogers is valuable only as an acknowledgment of the Bible canon, which God’s spirit had authorized.
Jazzns writes:
I am not just assuming something here. We have evidence that he was influential over the early church. He was the one appointed to produce/reproduce sacred scripture for the emperor. HIS history was accepted and preserved.
the point about the trinity was that he was not all that influencial at all. He wrote 'against' the trinity teaching, yet he was influenced by the church to write in favor of it. So how influencial was he really? Certainly not when it came to teaching and doctrine.
All he really did was write an account of the history of the church as it was in his day. Perhaps he was asked to do this or perhaps he took the initiative himself....it certainly doesnt prove that he held influence over the church.
Jazzns writes:
Or he just read the winds of change and didn't have the integrity to stand up for his own beliefs and be labeled a heritic for it. Remember, this guy had a line straight to the emperor, he had a lot to loose being on the wrong side.
yeah i agree
but this has no bearing on the NT writings that had existed for 3 centuries before he lived
Jazzns writes:
But you will accept their canon?
thats because there are a number of 4th century catalogs of the NT that date prior to the council who approved the canon and these agree almost exactly with our present canon.
the RCC church hold no authority over what already existed among the christian congregations...they may have assumed responsibility for it, but the fact is that it had been in existence prior to their formation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jazzns, posted 02-22-2010 9:55 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
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