Bible Question: What was the First Sin?

crashfrog writes:

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Then I was right...the first sin was running around naked.

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Is there an actual Biblical basis to the idea that nudity is a sin?

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Most every time it's brought up, it's described in terms of shame. The Bible makes a point of saying that Adam and Eve, before they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, go around naked "and were not ashamed." And again, the very first thing, the very first thing they do after eating from the Tree of Knowledge is notice that they're naked and cover up.

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Just because they feel ashamed and embarassed doesn't mean that they're hell-bound, now.

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Well, whether or not god is going to condemn them to hell for being naked isn't quite spelled out. But they do realize that it is evil to go around without clothes. And let's not forget, when god finds them after they have eaten from the tree, he gives them clothes just before he kicks them out of Eden:Genesis 3:21: Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

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And they were married, right?

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Yes, but what does that have to do with anything?

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Why is it any more sinful for Adam to be naked with his wife than for me with mine?

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Again, what does that have to do with anything? There's a difference between being naked in sexual congress and being a nudist.Thus, I don't think there's a specific commandment, "Thou shalt not be naked," but the description of people who are naked tends to be toward that it is something that shouldn't be done. Let's not forget what happens with Noah:Genesis 9:20: And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:9:21: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.9:22: And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.9:23: And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.9:24: And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.9:25: And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.Of course, there is some discussion as to what "saw the nakedness of his father" really means, but if we take it as a fairly straightforward description, there is something unusual about being nude and looking upon someone else without clothes has strictures placed upon it.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

mike the wiz responds to me:

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Oh, I see...taking a person's post seriously and providing a thorough response is something to sneer at

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It was so obviously a joke!

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I know. I was pointing out it was pathetic. It even insinuated that you weren't even really interested in honest debate.

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Do you really want to go on about the serpant again?

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Serp[i][b]E[/i][/b]nt. With an e. S-E-R-P-E-N-T.What's to go over? The serpent didn't lie and was not possessed by Satan.

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as we have done that previously, so why go over it again?

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You're the one who brought it up again. Apparently you want to.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Well, I just mention it because they're the only two people who exist at the time, and the entire garden is theirs, so it's no more sinful for them to be naked than for me and the wife to walk around the house naked. (Sorry for the mental image.) Unless that's a sin? Sure. I mean, I'm willing to grant that being naked in public is bad - that there's some people who shouldn't see you naked. But clearly there's some people who have to see you naked, so it can't be a big deal.Clearly the bible is down on public nudity. But if the only other person who exists is your wife, and the entire world is your home and garden, is that public nudity? I don't think so.

'I know. I was pointing out it was pathetic.'I was being light hearted, it was a hint for you to not go on about the serpant again.'SerpEnt. With an e. S-E-R-P-E-N-T.'You are reaching Rhain.'What's to go over? The serpent didn't lie and was not possessed by Satan.'Okay Rhain, you know what; whatever you say!

crashfrog responds to me:

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Yes, but what does that have to do with anything?

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Well, I just mention it because they're the only two people who exist at the time, and the entire garden is theirs, so it's no more sinful for them to be naked than for me and the wife to walk around the house naked. (Sorry for the mental image.)

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What does that got to do with anything?

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Unless that's a sin?

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Apparently. Remember, the very first thing Adam and Eve do when they eat from the Tree of Knowledge is cover up. They're still the only people alive and they still have the entire garden to themselves, but the very first thing they do is cover up. It's a sin to go around naked.

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But clearly there's some people who have to see you naked, so it can't be a big deal.

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But those times are highly regulated. It is something that is done out of necessity, not out of choice.

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Clearly the bible is down on public nudity.

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Even more so, it's down on nudity in general. Ham's son gets cursed because he comes across Noah drunk and naked (and this I don't understand...Ham is the one that came across Noah, but Noah curses Canaan, Ham's son...what'd he do to deserve that?)

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But if the only other person who exists is your wife, and the entire world is your home and garden, is that public nudity? I don't think so.

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Well, according to the Bible, it is nudity and it is something to be ashamed of. The Bible makes a point of their shamelessness in being naked before eating of the Tree of Knowledge and follows it up by having Adam and Eve panicking over the fact that they are naked when they do. Too, when god sends them packing, he gives them clothes. And all of this while they're still the only people in the world.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

mike the wiz responds to me:

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I know. I was pointing out it was pathetic.

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I was being light hearted,

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Oh, I'm sure you were trying, but desire and success are two different things.

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it was a hint for you to not go on about the serpant again.

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Serp[b][i]E[/b][/i]nt. With an e. S-E-R-P-E-N-T.

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SerpEnt. With an e. S-E-R-P-E-N-T.

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You are reaching Rhain.

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You mean you don't keep misspelling the word?I'm not the only one that's pointed it out to you. Is there some sort of reason why you keep misspelling it?Yes, I know...spelling flames are pretty low, but really. What's the point of misspelling it?And it's "Rrhain," with two r's."One is my name. The other is not."------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Right, but is their shame indicative of sinfulness? That's the jump that I don't see supported by the Bible. What I see is that the writers of Genesis expected their audience to already believe that nudity was a sin. What I don't see is a specific Biblical condemnation from God of a man and his wife being naked together in their garden. If they're shame is supposed to imply, that, fine, but that's something I'll need a little more support for. After all sometimes people get ashamed of perfectly non-sinful things that they do.

Hey Crash; Maybe you will find this argument useful: The pair had enough shame to deal with for the fact that they had disobeyed the explicit prohibition regarding their diet. By saying, "I was afraid because I was naked," Adam was clearly begging the question.Hope this helps your case. db------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

crashfrog responds to me:

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Well, according to the Bible, it is nudity and it is something to be ashamed of. The Bible makes a point of their shamelessness in being naked before eating of the Tree of Knowledge and follows it up by having Adam and Eve panicking over the fact that they are naked when they do.

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Right, but is their shame indicative of sinfulness?

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If it weren't, why would they be ashamed? Nobody told them they were naked. The only reason they have any feeling about it at all is because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge and became as gods, knowing good and evil.

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That's the jump that I don't see supported by the Bible.

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Again, why would they be ashamed over something that wasn't a sin? Why would the very first thing they do after eating from the Tree of Knowledge is cover up? And why would god give them clothes?If you can come up with some other reason for all of this panic over clothing that isn't connected to the concept of sin, then I'm all for it, but I don't see anything in Genesis 2 or 3 that indicates that being naked is neutral. It seems quite clear that it is sinful...Adam and Eve just get a pass for it at first because they are innocent and don't know any better (which makes one wonder why that doesn't apply to eating of the Tree of Knowledge.)

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What I see is that the writers of Genesis expected their audience to already believe that nudity was a sin.

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And why isn't that good enough? Look at the behaviour of the three characters in question. Again, the very first thing Adam and Eve do after eating from the tree is cover up. And when god is getting ready to kick them out, he gives them clothes.Why would anybody do that if being naked were not a sin? As you say, they're the only people around, they're married, what's the big deal? Apparently, it is a big deal...so important that god becomes the first L.L. Bean franchise.

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What I don't see is a specific Biblical condemnation from God of a man and his wife being naked together in their garden.

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He asks them right out: "Who told you you were naked?" He gives them clothes. You're absolutely right that nowhere in Genesis 2 or 3 does it say flat out, "Being naked is a sin." Instead, it is implicit in the direct statements of the text and the actions of the characters described in the text.It directly states that Adam and Eve were naked and "were not ashamed." Why would it be important to say that unless being naked were a sin? Why would Adam and Eve panic immediately upon eating from the Tree of Knowledge and cover up unless being naked were a sin? Why would the response to god about why they hid themselves be that they were naked and ashamed? Why would god be surprised that they knew this and were behaving as if they were ashamed? Why would god give them clothes?That last one is the only one that I can think of that might have a different answer: Since they're leaving Eden where everything was perfect, they're going to need the protective properties of clothing. However, that doesn't seem so likely given the previous context.You are perfectly free to feel that the admonition about being naked is silly, but the text in Genesis clearly indicates that it is something to be ashamed of.

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If they're shame is supposed to imply, that, fine, but that's something I'll need a little more support for.

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What more do you need? Adam and Eve were naked "and were not ashamed." What is that if not a direct indication that they should have been but weren't simply because they were innocent and didn't know any better? Why is the very first thing they do is cover up and not panic over eating from the Tree of Knowledge?

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After all sometimes people get ashamed of perfectly non-sinful things that they do.

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Indeed, but don't you think the very first thing Adam and Eve should have panicked over was eating from the Tree of Knowledge? And since their entire existence has been lived without clothing, why would they suddenly become ashamed of it after eating from the tree? If it weren't a sin, why would anybody care? If being naked weren't a sin, why would they worry about it since they had just become as gods knowing good and evil? If it weren't evil, they would know that and thus they wouldn't be upset over it and wouldn't cover up.Again, you're right that nowhere in Genesis 2 or 3 do we find, "Being naked is a sin." But to claim that the text doesn't clearly seem to think that being naked is a sin is disingenuous at best.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

anyone..This is a little off subject...but... I'm not sure what you all think of the serpent, or who it is. But isnt it kind of odd that eve is not surpised that the serpent talks to her? ( i get this from the text, it does not indicate that this has not/has happened before, and normally most people would freak out if an animal would talk to them.) And....is the serpent an acutal serpent? or is it another name for Satan. (i thought someone said somthing earlier about the serpent not being posessed by satan, so I was just wondering who they thought it was then.)
And since Eve does not appear to be startled by the serpent talking to her, does this mean that it was a regular thing?

Talking animals are very common in myth. This belief was at one time somehow native to the human mind.The root, in hebrew, means something like 'enchanter.'------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Pringlesguy7 responds to me:

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But isnt it kind of odd that eve is not surpised that the serpent talks to her?

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No. Why would it be?

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And....is the serpent an acutal serpent?

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Yes.Remember what happens to the serpent:Genesis 3:14: And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:That sounds like the description of the typical snake (except for the eating dust part).

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or is it another name for Satan.

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No.Satan does not go about on his belly.Too, Judaism had no concept of the devil at the time Genesis was conceived. Why would they include a reference to a being they didn't think existed and had no comprehension of?Remember, Genesis is a Jewish story. It is illegitimate to try and place Christian symbology on top of it.

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i thought someone said somthing earlier about the serpent not being posessed by satan, so I was just wondering who they thought it was then.

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A serpent. What on earth makes anybody think it was anything else?In fact, the Bible pretty much says so directly:Genesis 3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?The serpent is a beast. Not a supernatural entity.

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And since Eve does not appear to be startled by the serpent talking to her, does this mean that it was a regular thing?

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Who knows? The Bible also talks of a talking ass:Numbers 22:28: And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?22:29: And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.22:30: And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.So apparently, talking animals really aren't that bizarre to characters in the Bible.And no, the fact that Balaam's ass was possessed by god is not indicative that the serpent was possessed by anything. Remember, the serpent is never described as being possessed and is declared a beast.After all, if the serpent were possessed, why would god curse it? What did it do to deserve that?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

The first sin? Hmmm...Medeival christian priests believed the first sin was SEX. I don't know for sure. The fundamentalists taught me that it was literally eating a literal fruit from a literal tree of knowledge against YHWH's command not to. Nakedness seems to be a good option given that the priests SEX idea comes into play. Maybe. But when I read carefully that part about the serpent being condemed to life on it's belly, then it's obvious the serpent wasn't going around on it's belly BEFORE YHWH cursed it. Could Eve have boogied with the serpent? What do you think?

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Could Eve have boogied with the serpent? What do you think?

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Only if it was a one-eyed serpent.

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And....is the serpent an acutal serpent? or is it another name for Satan.

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No.

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Satan does not go about on his belly.

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That one made it into my quote book. Best quote all week. ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."