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Author Topic:   Extraterrestrial life and God.
nlerd
Member (Idle past 3605 days)
Posts: 48
From: Minnesota
Joined: 03-03-2010


Message 1 of 24 (549869)
03-11-2010 8:04 AM


Would absolute proof of intelligent extraterrestrial life break the faith of millions? Or would the faithful just find some way to fit it into the bible? Now I'm not saying that there is ANY proof of intelligent life other then on our planet. But if little green men (or big red women) landed in some big city to help man advance in technology (or enslave us all) how would it fit in with religions that have a creator (mostly Judeo-Chritian since its the one I know most about)? In whose image would the aliens be created in? They could even have vastly different morals and ways of seeing the universe.

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Message 2 of 24 (549911)
03-11-2010 12:25 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Extraterrestrial life and God. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 3 of 24 (549947)
03-11-2010 4:55 PM


IF.....proof of ET comes to light, the creationist/christian would have to accept that as part of God's plan of life or design of His cosmos. I don't think there's really anyway a Christian could fit it into the Bible though which is why I just don't think we'll ever find such ET.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Apothecus, posted 03-11-2010 6:03 PM Flyer75 has replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 4 of 24 (549960)
03-11-2010 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Flyer75
03-11-2010 4:55 PM


Non Sequitur?
I don't think there's really anyway a Christian could fit it into the Bible though which is why I just don't think we'll ever find such ET.
I can understand why, from a Christian's standpoint, this should be considered a valid statement. But I would hope you can reasonably see what a non sequitur it really is, if not a spectacular example of circular logic.

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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 5 of 24 (550004)
03-11-2010 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Apothecus
03-11-2010 6:03 PM


Re: Non Sequitur?
Apothecus,
You are right, that was a non sequitur but I don't really know how else to put it.
I don't think we are ever going to find intelligent alien life forms. It won't shock me in the least if we do find other life out there though in some form but not intelligent.
Either way, this is solely a hypothetical question at this point so it's hard to say how anybody would react if a saucer started hovering over the White House one morning.

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 Message 4 by Apothecus, posted 03-11-2010 6:03 PM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Apothecus, posted 03-12-2010 12:17 PM Flyer75 has replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 6 of 24 (550068)
03-12-2010 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Flyer75
03-11-2010 10:35 PM


Re: Non Sequitur?
Hey Flyer75.
Very true, a thought experiment indeed. No offense intended; just thought I'd nitpick.
And for the record, IMO the likelihood that (other) intelligent life exists within our universe is greatly outweighed by the vast distances which would be required for those lifeforms to travel to ever reach us.
But I do believe that they're out there... *cue X-files theme*
It won't shock me in the least if we do find other life out there though in some form but not intelligent.
I would think there would be substantial blowback from the religious community in general when (not if, IMO) other life is found, intelligent or not. Possibly less so from the fundamentalist camp, but what do you think? It seems to me that there'll be no shortage of biblical gymnastics which will be required to explain something like this away. Sort of like the whole Copernicus flap, yes? Would it not shake your faith in the least if the Genesis account of creation was necessarily tortured and manipulated in order to extend "creation" to other than this earth?
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 7 of 24 (550079)
03-12-2010 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Apothecus
03-12-2010 12:17 PM


starting to agree
So I've thought about this for the last day and I have to say that yes, if alien life forms (especially of the intelligent kind or at least animal kind) were discovered then yes, yes, it would present some sort of problem for a Christian. I still feel that the discovery of bacteria or small cellular life in water on a distant planet wouldn't shake my belief because I don't believe those things evolve anyway, at least not into a completely different entity.
In a more structured answer, I don't believe there are alien forms out there because Genesis doesn't tell us there are. In the creation events of Genesis 1-3, there are no indications that God created intelligent alien life forms at any point.
Good conversation anyway....and I loved the X-files, never missed an episode.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Meldinoor, posted 03-12-2010 4:07 PM Flyer75 has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


(1)
Message 8 of 24 (550080)
03-12-2010 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Flyer75
03-12-2010 4:01 PM


Re: starting to agree
Flyer75 writes:
In a more structured answer, I don't believe there are alien forms out there because Genesis doesn't tell us there are. In the creation events of Genesis 1-3, there are no indications that God created intelligent alien life forms at any point.
It doesn't say that God created microbes either, and yet we've discovered them. It doesn't say that God created other planets, yet they're out there.
It doesn't say that Moses ever took a piss. Yet I don't think anyone believes he was gifted with a superhuman bladder.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Flyer75, posted 03-12-2010 4:01 PM Flyer75 has replied

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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 9 of 24 (550085)
03-12-2010 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Meldinoor
03-12-2010 4:07 PM


Re: starting to agree
Well, I knew someone would bring that up. There's allot not mentioned, a ton in fact, in the book of Genesis that science has discovered about life around us and the structures of cells, protein, ect. But the discovery of those, imo, hasn't disproved a creator either. There has been nothing discovered about the human body that disproves a creator. The discovery of alien life forms, again imo, is so significant that I feel it would have been mentioned.
IF, we have been evolving for billions of years, I'd like to think that at some point, either an intelligent life form, or a MORE intelligent life form would have made themselves known at this point, but they haven't...in fact, we've thus far discovered not even a hint of life out there. That's not to say there isn't but until proven, I'll keep my position. Supposedly it's been billions of years in the making, it may be another billion before we see an alien life form, in which case I'll be a billion years removed from the equation and probably won't care. At that point, I'll know if I were right or wrong on all my positions and the only one who will care will be............me.

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 Message 8 by Meldinoor, posted 03-12-2010 4:07 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Meldinoor, posted 03-12-2010 5:01 PM Flyer75 has replied
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Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 10 of 24 (550090)
03-12-2010 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Flyer75
03-12-2010 4:44 PM


Re: starting to agree
First off, you can't "disprove" a "Creator". One can disprove specific creation stories, like the notion that the earth is 6000 years old. But you can't disprove a Creator, it's just too vague. That's like trying to disprove a "Gnarf". If you don't define what it is, and what it does, you can't decide whether it exists or not.
Flyer75 writes:
The discovery of alien life forms, again imo, is so significant that I feel it would have been mentioned.
Microbes would be more significant IMO. They cause diseases, help digest our food, and break down carcasses (and a plethora of other functions). They are also the most varied and abundant life on earth. If God spent a whole day just designing "land animals" you'd think he'd deign to mention the myriads of microbes he created.
ETs, OTOH, are not even a part of this planet, and their existence is a lot less relevant to us than the existence of microbes.
Flyer75 writes:
IF, we have been evolving for billions of years, I'd like to think that at some point, either an intelligent life form, or a MORE intelligent life form would have made themselves known at this point, but they haven't...in fact, we've thus far discovered not even a hint of life out there
Maybe there isn't life out there. The fact that we've been evolving for billions of years does not imply that the universe should be sprawling with life. Certainly, one would expect intelligent life to be rare, and with the distances involved, even the most intelligent life-forms may not be able, or see the need to, pay us a visit.
Flyer75 writes:
That's not to say there isn't but until proven, I'll keep my position
And your position is what? There is no extraterrestrial life? Or you don't know?
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Flyer75, posted 03-12-2010 4:44 PM Flyer75 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Flyer75, posted 03-12-2010 5:16 PM Meldinoor has replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 11 of 24 (550091)
03-12-2010 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Meldinoor
03-12-2010 5:01 PM


Re: starting to agree
Meldinoor writes:
Microbes would be more significant IMO. They cause diseases, help digest our food, and break down carcasses (and a plethora of other functions). They are also the most varied and abundant life on earth. If God spent a whole day just designing "land animals" you'd think he'd deign to mention the myriads of microbes he created.
ETs, OTOH, are not even a part of this planet, and their existence is a lot less relevant to us than the existence of microbes.
I understand your point on this...but the Bible is not a science book. The Bible was not intended to explain how the human eye works, or how to design a microscope, thus the length of time it took for science to make this happen. It's my opinion that the "creation" of another race of people (if that's the right word) is fairly significant. Significant enough that you then have to ask: Did Christ die for them too? Do they have their own Bible? How many races are there? Did Christ die multiple times on each of their planets? So yes, it's significant!
Meldinoor writes:
Maybe there isn't life out there. The fact that we've been evolving for billions of years does not imply that the universe should be sprawling with life. Certainly, one would expect intelligent life to be rare, and with the distances involved, even the most intelligent life-forms may not be able, or see the need to, pay us a visit
And this one reason that I don't believe in evolution. I know theistic evolutions can explain this but Big Bang theorists would have a harder time. The randomness of life only forming here, only here! No where else. Just a total random kabang and life on earth but nowhere else. Our planet, set randomly in place by accident in a literal perfect position in ALL of outer space. Amazing isn't it? The fact is, as far as we know know, there's NO life in the universe, let alone sprawling. Now, your last point there i can agree with. None of this doesn't mean that there isn't life way way out there somewhere.
Meldinoor writes:
And your position is what? There is no extraterrestrial life? Or you don't know?[
My position is that there is no et life. My position is no different then one who believes they exist....neither of us can prove the other right or wrong. Again, as I've stated before it would do nothing to my faith if something were found out there such as plankton even.

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Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


(1)
Message 12 of 24 (550097)
03-12-2010 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Flyer75
03-12-2010 5:16 PM


Re: starting to agree
Hi Flyer,
Flyer75 writes:
but the Bible is not a science book
Very true. And something I keep reminding my creationist friends of.
Flyer75 writes:
It's my opinion that the "creation" of another race of people (if that's the right word) is fairly significant
Why?
Flyer75 writes:
Significant enough that you then have to ask: Did Christ die for them too? Do they have their own Bible? How many races are there? Did Christ die multiple times on each of their planets? So yes, it's significant!
Significant maybe if you're a theologian with a poor imagination and a propensity to ask irrelevant questions. Even if God created alien life during a six day creation, he'd hardly be forced to cater to our curiosity. Questions like, "do the aliens sin"? or "did Jesus die for them"? are utterly irrelevant to anyone but the aliens. It may stoke our curiosity, but we really don't need to know.
Flyer75 writes:
And this one reason that I don't believe in evolution
If I might be so bold, that's a remarkably bad reason not to accept the theory of evolution, which doesn't even mention extra-terrestrial life, nor speculate on how such unknown lifeforms evolve!
Flyer75 writes:
I know theistic evolutions can explain this but Big Bang theorists would have a harder time
The two are not mutually exclusive. The Big Bang theory (which by the way, was originally a pejorative name coined by opponents of the theory that later stuck) is well evidenced today, and many Old-Earth creationists embrace it because it implies a beginning to space and time.*
Big Bang theory doesn't say anything about extra-terrestrial life either.
Flyer75 writes:
The randomness of life only forming here, only here! No where else. Just a total random kabang and life on earth but nowhere else. Our planet, set randomly in place by accident in a literal perfect position in ALL of outer space. Amazing isn't it? The fact is, as far as we know know, there's NO life in the universe, let alone sprawling. Now, your last point there i can agree with. None of this doesn't mean that there isn't life way way out there somewhere.
Slow down brother. How much of this do you know, and how much have you heard from creationist sources? Allow me to dissect what you're saying here.
1. "Just a total random kabang..."
We don't know what caused the "Big Bang" so we can't possibly know whether it was random or not. Certainly, those who are inclined to believe a supernatural agency caused it would say it wasn't random.
2. "The randomness of life only forming here, only here! No where else."
This is called Begging the Question, or assuming the initial point. You are assuming there's no life out there, in a discussion about whether there is in fact life out there. You can't use your conclusion as an axiom.
As for whether there is life out there, we don't know. We've only been actively looking for a few decades, and the universe is so vast that even if there were millions of advanced civilizations out there, we'd still be looking for needles in a gigantic haystack.
3. "Our planet, set randomly in place by accident in a literal perfect position in ALL of outer space"
How do you know Earth is in the "perfect" position? There might be an even more "perfect" position in another spiral arm of the galaxy. Seriously though, with so many planets, is it so amazing that some have the qualities necessary to support life? (And life doesn't need a whole lot in order to function at some level). Is it then so amazing that the life living on such a planet is "perfectly"** adapted to living on it? It's like a puddle of water saying: "My, this hole sure fits me perfectly. It must have been shaped just for me".
Flyer75 writes:
My position is that there is no et life. My position is no different then one who believes they exist
And both opposing positions are, if I may be so bold, irrational. One can not hold to a position of certainty when there is yet so little known about the requirements for life, and its existence in the cosmos. The best one can do is guess, use some statistical formula like the Drake equation, and hope the numbers are right.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
*When the Big Bang theory began to gain acceptance in scientific circles it was opposed by rival theories like Steady State Theory. Steady State Theory basically supposes that the universe has always existed pretty much as it does today. Big Bang theory was thus a windfall for Creationists and others who believed God created the universe in a finite past. The Big Bang theory was at first vigorously opposed by many prominent scientists who were uncomfortable with a beginning and a singularity. Einstein famously threw a "cosmological constant" into his math to remove the need for a Beginning, although he later conceded that it was his "greatest mistake".
**I put "perfectly" within a quotation marks since no life form is perfectly adapted to this planet. Most life that has ever lived here has gone extinct. People die all the time because they are not perfectly adapted to the planet. (In earthquakes, storms, floodings ect.)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 13 of 24 (550099)
03-12-2010 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Flyer75
03-12-2010 5:16 PM


The nature of coincidences.
And this one reason that I don't believe in evolution. I know theistic evolutions can explain this but Big Bang theorists would have a harder time. The randomness of life only forming here, only here! No where else. Just a total random kabang and life on earth but nowhere else. Our planet, set randomly in place by accident in a literal perfect position in ALL of outer space. Amazing isn't it?
And amazing such coincidences seem to abound on this little planet. As the human population grew and spread out all over the globe, either out of Africa or away from Noah's arc, depending on your prospective, settling down in all of its lands, what is the probability that the Serbs would just happen to settle down in a place where Serbian was the spoken language? Your response reminds of of the response of a child, a baseball fan, who had just learned that Lou Gehrig had suffered for most of his career from Lou Gehrig's disease. The child asked "What are the odds that he would contract a disease that had the exact same name as he did?"

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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 14 of 24 (550104)
03-12-2010 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Flyer75
03-12-2010 5:16 PM


Not a universalist.
It's my opinion that the "creation" of another race of people (if that's the right word) is fairly significant. Significant enough that you then have to ask: Did Christ die for them too? Do they have their own Bible? How many races are there? Did Christ die multiple times on each of their planets? So yes, it's significant!
Lets remember that Jesus did not even bestir himself to travel to China, or India, or the Americas to bring the word of god and salvation from sin to those beleaguered peoples. Thus, hundreds of millions of souls are now burning in hell because they knew not Christ. Perhaps he had a fear of flying, which would make space-travel very unlikely for him.

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nlerd
Member (Idle past 3605 days)
Posts: 48
From: Minnesota
Joined: 03-03-2010


Message 15 of 24 (550112)
03-12-2010 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Flyer75
03-12-2010 4:44 PM


Re: starting to agree
There's allot not mentioned, a ton in fact, in the book of Genesis that science has discovered about life around us and the structures of cells, protein, ect. But the discovery of those, imo, hasn't disproved a creator either. There has been nothing discovered about the human body that disproves a creator. The discovery of alien life forms, again imo, is so significant that I feel it would have been mentioned.
Nothing can disprove the existance of a creator. But by the account in the bible it seems made clear that everything was made for man and man was made in God's image. If aliens were proven to exist (complex intellegent types or single cell kinds) what reason could a Christian come up with for their existance? That man isn't really as important to God as the bible makes it seem? Did God just get bored with all of the empty lifeless planets so he sprinkled some life on them?
This is a hypothetical discussion but it does seem likely that there is some kind of life out there somewhere in the cosmos.

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